[permaculture-oceania] Re: the 'rights-based' approach

[Mike Edmonds]

Oops. Sorry my reference in my last email was incorrect. The books was 
Lessons of History by Will and Ariel Durant.

And the article about Argentina is here: 
http://www.orionmagazine.org/pages/om/06-4om/Ballve.html

Mike


Russ Grayson wrote:
> Hi John...
>
> On 18/8/06 10:36 AM, "John Bickmore" <lindajohnandsophie at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>   
>> Hi I am very interested in this topic.  I am writing an essay for uni about
>> what political system a sustainable society may have.
>>     
>
> I don't think you can go past some type of democracy... there are many
> models - representative democracy, direct democracy, liberal democracy and
> so on. The thing about the democratic model is that it should give dignity
> to individuals and keep government out of private life as much as possible.
> We know that our present system doesn't quite live up to this, however I
> don't see any other contenders that potentially blend the common and the
> individual good. 
>
> What are the other systems? Authoritarianism, which denies dignity and
> freedom of action and expression to the individual and has a record of
> kleptocracy, corruption and ineptitude. The communist model was as
> environmentally damaging as the capitalist, as Gorbachev said.
>
> There's a Libertarian model which postulates the devolution of governance to
> smaller social units like towns and communities and which avoids big
> government. In theory, there is a lot that is attractive about it, however
> Libertarianism seems to be a somewhat broad philosophy that spans the
> political spectrum from anarchism to free market capitalism. This, I think,
> is what some anarchist writers have proposed as have some eco-utopian
> writers.
>
> A model of decentralised Libertarianism was postulated in Ernest
> Callenbach's 1970s book, 'Ecotopia' and in the sequal volume. That would be
> even more possible now that we have instantaneous electronic communication
> over great distance, however the maintenance of a high-tech eUtopia in a
> minimal or zero growth economy is problematic.
>
> It's quite the opposite to the dedgraded tech model portrayed in Blade
> Runner.
>
> Utopian thought in the current period seems to diverge into two strands that
> then shoot off in opposing directions. Both have been explored by science
> fiction writers, a genre in which novel political ideas and models of
> civilisation are often explored. One is the low-tech neo-peasantry model
> which puts people back onto the land in a kind of enlightened subsistence
> culture that could be described as post-apocalyptic. Probably unachievable
> now. The other is along the lines that Callenbach proposed in Ecotopia - a
> hi-tech, demographically, economically and politically decentralised
> civilisation. That model still has a lot of adherents and it is,
> theoretically, posssible now. There's certainly a lot going for it.
>
> The UNSW-based social philosopher and lecturer, Dr Ted Trainer, used to
> postulate a grab bag of ideas that varied between the low-tech
> back-to-the-land model to the hi-tech civilisation. His certainly called for
> a high standard of technological innovation although it has been discussed
> as supporting a low-tech model.
>
> I think New Internationalist magazine (September 2003) summed up our present
> dilemma: "Political decision-making is reduced to a series of technocratic
> management problems unrelated to our everyday experiences and problems... as
> a result we retreat into our private homes... an opposing ideology around
> which resistance can mobilise seems today to be nonexistent... the vacuum
> being left by the death of an alternative ideology is being filled by
> religious fundamentalism and racism... ".
>
>   
>> Clearly our current society is not sustainable.  I am thinking of using Cuba
>> as an example of a society that is truly working towards sustainability.
>>     
>
> I understand thee Cubans have made gains in localising their food supply.
> Cuba was forced into reassessing its economy with the collapse of the Soviet
> Union and the loss of its subsidised sugar market to the Eastern Bloc.
>
> Cuba is an interesting case in many ways but I have some reservations about
> Cuba as a model sustainable society. The government is authotitarian and of
> the classic managerial Stalinist model which imprisons writers and
> journalists (the most recent cases just a few years ago). It was reluctant
> to grant access to the Internet. It's arguable that a country without
> individual freedoms can be described as sustainable - man lives on more than
> locally-grown food alone.
>
>   
>> Getting back to the rights thing.  I think Wackernagels footprint analysis
>> is the only equitable way to distribute rights.  I think the current share
>> is 1.8ha 
>>     
>
> We shouldn't forget that footprint models are only that - models - ways of
> conceptualising an idea so that it is more easily comprehended. They have
> their uses but are not scientific tools and do not exhibit exactness... I
> would take care in taking any figures they produce as accurate.... more of
> an approximation that you get when you put generalised figures into their
> formula.
>
>   
>> I know my footprint isnt that small, and would be surprised if any on this
>> list (in Australia) were.
>>     
>
> It's difficult to achieve all that significant a reduction when you work for
> a living in a society that has a large footprint because you have to use the
> society's infrastructure - public transport, energy and other necessities.
>
> We know that individuals can reduce their impact as many have demonstrated -
> like that family that recently published their experience in a paperback
> (can't recall their name). However they owned a house and land and didn't
> seem to work in city jobs, and we know from Bureau of Statistics figures and
> from media coverage that home ownership is in decline and that young people
> find great difficulty in acquiring a home, so their example is not typical
> or achievable by all.
>
> I think it is important to try to reduce impact but to be philosophical in
> accepting that there are limits on what you can do. There is a sizable group
> of people in society who want to do something - and there is a need to
> systematise what these motivated people can do and to focus on the easiest
> first... they need to know that what is suggested is achievable on incomes
> earned by city workers paying a mortgage, paying for children and those
> other expenses incurred by urban families.
>
>   
>> I think this share is also based on not leaving any for the other species, and
>> I think we are just another species that has gone feral,
>>     
>
> This sound a rather dystopian opinion of humanity and I'm not so sure it is
> compatible with moving towards sustainability. Humanity evolved in certain
> ways through tool-use and through developing intelligence and consciousness
> which brought us the abilities we have to change our environments. In that
> sense what we are today is 'natural'.
>
>   
>> I would be interested if anyone knows what sort of footprints are achievable
>> with permaculture.  I am sure a permaculture footprint would be the lowest
>> achievable other than indiginous peoples living a traditional way of life.
>>     
>
> Here we run into another puzzler - how do you describe Permaculture and what
> makes it up? To some, it's organic gardening + design. To others, it's a
> rural pursuit focused on the smallholder. To me and others, it's not
> primarily about growing food at all, rather, it's an approach to living and
> a way of thinking about life and what we do in it that may have nothing to
> do with agriculture or gardening. I think this might have been how the
> originators conceived it after they revised its definition from that of a
> 'permaculture agriculture' to a 'permanent culture'.
>
> Thanks for your posting... it's good to coinsider these things.
>
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
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>
>
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