ping darren - RE: [permaculture-oceania] Kleenmaid & Knives

[len organicpc]

thanks james,

real water management at least will only come when the initial water load is 
used more than once, so the 100 litres of water if it can be used 2 or 3 
times then becomes realy efficient.

and yes my doubt are from my suspicions of gove' supported industry 
standards being purported to be the ultimate, so they offer a monitery 
reward. and i would have my suspicions that whom ever did the research had 
any interest in highlighting any downsides that type of machine may have.

if water becomes more and more scarce then a return to the laundry drudge if 
i might say that will be the only way to get real efficiencies, as the auto 
robotic type set and forget system just can't come up with the goods and on 
the power side which you are more atuned to some of those front loader 
monolyths even do the clothes drying, defineatly not encouraging wise use of 
resources hey?

feel good is not the answer


With peace and brightest of blessings,

len

--
"Be Content With What You Have And
May You Find Serenity and Tranquillity In
A World That You May Not Understand."

http://www.gardenlen.com





>From: Champagne <brogopg at bigpond.net.au>
>Reply-To: permaculture-oceania <permaculture-oceania at lists.cat.org.au>
>To: permaculture-oceania <permaculture-oceania at lists.cat.org.au>
>Subject: Re: ping darren - RE: [permaculture-oceania] Kleenmaid & Knives
>Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 15:32:54 +1000
>
>we had a twin tub for many years and through 5 kids  and all their nappies 
>and yes it was a great water saver( not that you would rewash in nappy 
>water!!)   but a lot of work - if you're at home a lot its fine but not 
>when working off property.
>
>when we went to look for a new machine we initially looked at front loaders 
>because of their ratings for energy and water- but there were two problems- 
>one most heat there own water if you want to use the hot/warm water cycle ( 
>thus negating the solar hot water system we have which uses no energy!)( 
>and I don'think that this is factored into their energy ratings!)  and 
>secondly most front loaders use a huge surge of energy when they go into 
>their spin cycle (Thus presenting problems for our stand alone power system 
>which does not appreciate such huge jolts).
>
>In the end we purchased a top loader *7 1/2 kg* wash Fisher and Paykal 
>machine which on its Eco cycle uses 101 liters of water. it is possible to 
>reuse the water and the booklet gives you several options for doing this.
>
>Hope this information is of some value
>Sharon C
>
>James Sprunt wrote:
>
>>Hi there Len,
>>
>>Too late I'm afraid - just bought a front-loader. I'll
>>do some tests and
>>post them to the list.
>>
>>My Mum had a twin tub for years on the farm and then a
>>top loader. Despite
>>her bad back, she was forever saving water (and suds)
>>and using them again.
>>At the age of 76 she had just purchased her first
>>front loader and for the
>>ease of it at least, she wishes she had of done it
>>years ago.
>>
>>Thanks for the reminder the twin tubs though.
>>
>>Regards,
>>
>>James
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: permaculture-oceania-bounces at lists.cat.org.au
>>[mailto:permaculture-oceania-bounces at lists.cat.org.au]
>>On Behalf Of len
>>organicpc
>>Sent: Sunday, 27 August 2006 5:18 AM
>>To: permaculture-oceania at lists.cat.org.au
>>Subject: RE: ping darren - RE: [permaculture-oceania]
>>Kleenmaid & Knives
>>
>>g;day james,
>>
>>the figures you mention are they in real time and for
>>the complete cycle?
>>
>>just the way i see it nay research around if you want
>>to call it that especially seems to support frontloaders but to me it
>>seems more like an industry puch as expensive to buy frontloaders are
>>probably easier to make than top loaders?? i don't know but if you read my
>>response to darrenyou will get what i am meaning.
>>
>>a wash machine salesman told me also that his friend a
>>repairer of machines only ever buys twin tubs because they are truely 
>>water
>>wise. and they aren't
>>
>>recognised as such even in the government rebate
>>schemes but particularly in
>>
>>the seemingly meaningless star rating method.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>With peace and brightest of blessings,
>>
>>len
>>
>>--
>>"Be Content With What You Have And
>>May You Find Serenity and Tranquillity In
>>A World That You May Not Understand."
>>
>>http://www.gardenlen.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>From: James Sprunt <mcsprint71 at yahoo.com>
>>>Reply-To: permaculture-oceania
>>>
>>>
>><permaculture-oceania at lists.cat.org.au>
>>
>>
>>>To: 'permaculture-oceania'
>>>
>>>
>><permaculture-oceania at lists.cat.org.au>
>>
>>
>>>Subject: RE: ping darren - RE: [permaculture-oceania]
>>>
>>>
>>Kleenmaid & Knives
>>
>>
>>>Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 18:32:35 -0700 (PDT)
>>>
>>>I have been researching and looking at front loaders
>>>for the last week.
>>>Water use per wash ranges from about 37 litres to
>>>about 70 litres for the
>>>more water efficient models.
>>>
>>>Have just had our first child back in Melbourne after
>>>two years living and
>>>working in India. Moved into a rental which came with
>>>a toploader but after
>>>three weeks of washing nappies have hit the net and
>>>the shops in search of a
>>>durable, water and energy efficient front loader. It
>>>is quite apt that this
>>>topic had popped up.
>>>
>>>The Choice magazine survey is a strange one to
>>>
>>>
>>follow.
>>
>>
>>>Brands such as
>>>Kleenmaid and Asko rate 12th and 13th respectively on
>>>reliability yet when
>>>asked if customers would buy the brand again, 87%
>>>
>>>
>>said
>>
>>
>>>they would (3rd
>>>behind Miele 96% and Bosch 88%).
>>>
>>>It's quite confusing. I thought I had decided on an
>>>Asko (4.5* energy, 5A
>>>(older rating) or 4* (WELS - new) for water.)
>>>
>>>I wanted something that would last a long time even
>>>
>>>
>>if
>>
>>
>>>it cost a bit more as
>>>the Asko 6kg model (made in Sweden) is around $1500.
>>>Yesterday I looked at a
>>>Maytag which also rates the same for water but only
>>>3.5* for energy and at
>>>less than $900 (made in Italy) is substantially
>>>cheaper. The salesperson
>>>suggested that if I was going to buy something as
>>>expensive as Asko I might
>>>as well buy a few hundred more and get a Miele.
>>>
>>>Any comments on Asko, Maytag or Choice ratings?
>>>
>>>Regards,
>>>
>>>James
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: permaculture-oceania-bounces at lists.cat.org.au
>>>[mailto:permaculture-oceania-bounces at lists.cat.org.au]
>>>On Behalf Of len
>>>organicpc
>>>Sent: Thursday, 24 August 2006 12:26 PM
>>>To: permaculture-oceania at lists.cat.org.au
>>>Subject: ping darren - RE: [permaculture-oceania]
>>>Kleenmaid & Knives
>>>
>>>g'day darren,
>>>
>>>not sure you may have been busy and missed my reply
>>>
>>>
>>to
>>
>>
>>>your kleenmaid wash
>>>machine post.
>>>
>>>i am interested to know what water a front loader
>>>
>>>
>>uses
>>
>>
>>>to wash a load of
>>>clothes, are you able to help with an answer??
>>>
>>>tia
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>With peace and brightest of blessings,
>>>
>>>len
>>>
>>>--
>>>"Be Content With What You Have And
>>>May You Find Serenity and Tranquillity In
>>>A World That You May Not Understand."
>>>
>>>http://www.gardenlen.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>From: "len organicpc" <gardenlen at hotmail.com>
>>>>Reply-To: promoting permaculture and sustainable
>>>>
>>>>
>>>living in the oceania
>>>
>>>
>>>>region<permaculture-oceania at lists.cat.org.au>
>>>>To: permaculture-oceania at lists.cat.org.au
>>>>Subject: RE: [permaculture-oceania] Kleenmaid &
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Knives
>>>
>>>
>>>>Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 16:05:49 +1000
>>>>
>>>>g'day darren,
>>>>
>>>>yep exactly what i say to people if you want good
>>>>
>>>>
>>>machinery you gotta pay
>>>
>>>
>>>>for it, the returns generally always are logivity
>>>>
>>>>
>>of
>>
>>
>>>service and
>>>
>>>
>>>>reliability.
>>>>
>>>>with the front loader what does "bugger all water"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>mean for a 5 kilogram
>>>
>>>
>>>>load from go to whoa?
>>>>
>>>>tia
>>>>
>>>>With peace and brightest of blessings,
>>>>
>>>>len
>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>"Be Content With What You Have And
>>>>May You Find Serenity and Tranquillity In
>>>>A World That You May Not Understand."
>>>>
>>>>http://www.gardenlen.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>From: <darren at permaculture.biz>
>>>>>Reply-To: promoting permaculture and sustainable
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>living in the oceania
>>>
>>>
>>>>>region<permaculture-oceania at lists.cat.org.au>
>>>>>To: "'promoting permaculture and sustainable
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>living
>>
>>
>>>in the oceania
>>>
>>>
>>>>>region'"<permaculture-oceania at lists.cat.org.au>
>>>>>Subject: RE: [permaculture-oceania] Kleenmaid &
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>Knives
>>>
>>>
>>>>>Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 11:00:04 +0700
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>G'day,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>I trust that this greets you and all well.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Can vouch for the Kleenmaid washing machines. I
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>bought a 5kg front loader
>>>
>>>
>>>>>10
>>>>>years ago for $1200 and it is still going
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>beautifully. Uses 1 tablespoon
>>>
>>>
>>>>>of
>>>>>Aware & bugger all water/power. Can't recall the
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>figures.  Design life
>>>
>>>
>>>>>must
>>>>>come into your calculations with purchases such as
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>these. Generally if you
>>>
>>>
>>>>>buy crap you don't get longevity. Good quality
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>knives are another example.
>>>
>>>
>>>>>My knives from back in my chef days nearly 20
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>years
>>
>>
>>>ago are still great
>>>
>>>
>>>>>and
>>>>>I'll probably give them to my kids like my
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>grandfather's 60 year old
>>>
>>>
>>>>>handmade butchery set.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Yours and Growing,
>>>>>
>>>>>Darren J. Doherty
>>>>>
>>>>>Permaculture Designer
>>>>>
>>>>>Australia Felix Permaculture
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Integrated Consultant
>>>>>
>>>>>M&M's/Mars Inc.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Australia (Bendigo):
>>>>>
>>>>>Yeerip House
>>>>>
>>>>>103 Casey St, East Bendigo, Victoria, Australia,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>3550
>>>
>>>
>>>>>p. +61 3 5444 1068
>>>>>
>>>>>m. +61 (0) 418 254 605 (Australian Mobile)
>>>>>
>>>>>e.  <mailto:darren at permaculture.biz>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>darren at permaculture.biz
>>>
>>>
>>>>>w.  <http://www.permaculture.biz/>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>www.permaculture.biz
>>>
>>>
>>>>>Australia (Moriac):
>>>>>
>>>>>Dalpura
>>>>>
>>>>>15 Thielemanns Rd, Moriac, Victoria, Australia,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>3240
>>
>>
>>>>>p. +61 3 5266 1807
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Viet Nam (Dong Xoai):
>>>>>
>>>>>Sustainable Cacao Agroforestry Systems (SCAS)
>>>>>
>>>>>Hillside Restoration & Water/Soil Conservation
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>Project,
>>>
>>>
>>>>>Forest Science Sub Institute of Vietnam (FSSIV)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>Research Farm,
>>>
>>>
>>>>>Huong-lo 312, Nghia Trung Commune, Bu Dang
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>District,
>>
>>
>>>Binh Phuoc Province,
>>>
>>>
>>>>>Socialist Republic of Vietnam
>>>>>
>>>>>m. +84 (0) 909 861 520  (Viet Nam Mobile)
>>>>>
>>>>><http://www.permaculture.biz/>
>>>>>
>>>>>PRIVACY DISCLAIMER - The contents of this
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>electronic
>>
>>
>>>message and any
>>>
>>>
>>>>>attachments are intended only for the addressees
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>and
>>
>>
>>>may contain
>>>
>>>
>>>>>privileged
>>>>>or confidential information. They may only be used
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>for the purposes for
>>>
>>>
>>>>>which they were supplied. Any use not in accord
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>with
>>
>>
>>>its purpose, any
>>>
>>>
>>>>>dissemination or disclosure, either whole or
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>partial, is prohibited except
>>>
>>>
>>>>>with formal approval. If you receive this message
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>in
>>
>>
>>>error please delete
>>>
>>>
>>>>>it
>>>>>and immediately notify the sender by return e-mail
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>or telephone
>>>
>>>
>>>>>  _____
>>>>>
>>>>>From:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>permaculture-oceania-bounces at lists.cat.org.au
>>
>>
>>>>[mailto:permaculture-oceania-bounces at lists.cat.org.au]
>>>>
>>>>
>>>On Behalf Of John
>>>
>>>
>>>>>Bickmore
>>>>>Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 11:24 AM
>>>>>To: permaculture-oceania at lists.cat.org.au
>>>>>Subject: RE: [permaculture-oceania] New Members
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>Story
>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Hi Permy Dorc and others
>>>>>
>>>>>Did you get a new washing machine as part of your
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>sustainable house reno?.
>>>
>>>
>>>>>I have fixed ours for the last time so I am
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>looking
>>
>>
>>>for the most efficient
>>>
>>>
>>>>>front loader I can get.   The Kleenmaid models
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>seem
>>
>>
>>>to have the best water
>>>
>>>
>>>>>and power ratings but cost around $2,500.  I read
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>the choice magazine
>>>
>>>
>>>>>article and the really efficient models were not
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>at
>>
>>
>>>the top of the list (I
>>>
>>>
>>>>>expect they save power by not washing as
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>effectively
>>
>>
>>>as other machines?).
>>>
>>>
>>>>>The choice article listed 2 samsung machines at
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>the
>>
>>
>>>top of the medium size
>>>
>>>
>>>>>category.  These machines are rated 5A for water
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>but
>>
>>
>>>only 3.5 for energy!.
>>>
>>>
>>>>>Does anyone have any reccomendations for washing
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>machines?
>>>
>>>
>>>>>Sydney water is giving $150 cashback if you
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>purchase
>>
>>
>>>a 4A or 5A water
>>>
>>>
>>>>>efficieny rating washing machine.
>>>>>
>>>>>Thankyou
>>>>>
>>>>>Regards
>>>>>
>>>>>John
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  _____
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>From: "Matt Heffernan" <kbanana at bigpond.net.au>
>>>>>Reply-To: promoting permaculture and sustainable
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>living in the oceania
>>>
>>>
>>>>>region<permaculture-oceania at lists.cat.org.au>
>>>>>To: "promoting permaculture and sustainable living
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>in the oceania
>>>
>>>
>>>>>region"<permaculture-oceania at lists.cat.org.au>
>>>>>Subject: [permaculture-oceania] New Members Story
>>>>>Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2006 19:39:16 +1000
>>>>>
>>>>>Gday all.
>>>>>
>>>>>My name is Matt Heffernan.
>>>>>
>>>>>I have just joined your mailing list & will tell
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>you
>>
>>
>>>as briefly as
>>>
>>>
>>>>>possible
>>>>>
>>>>>what I've been doing re Permaculture.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>I  completed a PDC
>>>>>
>>>>>at Ecoliving centre Randwick with Robyn Francis
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>last
>>
>>
>>>year.
>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>From suburban Oatley in Sydney, Ive designed &
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>just recently
>>>
>>>
>>>>>renovated(using
>>>>>a builder) my 2 bed full brick house,
>>>>>
>>>>>changing the layout,increasing garden space,
>>>>>
>>>>>building 3 beds & bathroom upstairs for a family
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>of
>>
>>
>>>4.
>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>I have 6 solar panels facing Nth, Room for 2 more
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>sending power back to
>>>
>>>
>>>>>the
>>>>>grid.(just made the now defunct rebate)
>>>>>
>>>>>For the 1st full qtr Mar-Jun, they provided approx
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>35% of my power.
>>>
>>>
>>>>>They are fixed on roof & the gradient will be much
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>better for summer
>>>
>>>
>>>>>(peak).
>>>>>
>>>>>Working on our usage.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>7000 litres - 2 water tanks. (no space for any
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>more).The rainwater is fed
>>>
>>>
>>>>>through the
>>>>>
>>>>>house for everything using an electric pump. I
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>have
>>
>>
>>>a sediment & UV filter
>>>
>>>
>>>>>next to pump.
>>>>>
>>>>>When the tank empties, town water switches in
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>automatically and fed to
>>>
>>>
>>>>>house
>>>>>via mains pressure.
>>>>>
>>>>>We've had plenty of rain lately & therefore havent
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>switched over to town
>>>
>>>
>>>>>water for 2 months now. Yeeha. (and they filled
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>again today)
>>>
>>>
>>>>>we are using 200 litres per day which gives 37
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>days.
>>
>>
>>>4A toilets, 4A
>>>
>>>
>>>>>dishwasher, 3A everything else.
>>>>>
>>>>>Working on our usage.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Used passive heating, cooling principles, plenty
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>of
>>
>>
>>>cross ventilation,
>>>
>>>
>>>>>laminated windows - casement for wind catching.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>Insulation in walls
>>>
>>>
>>>>>and roof upstairs + sarking under colourbond roof,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>2
>>
>>
>>>whirly birds, raised
>>>
>>>
>>>>>floor boards to be insulated soon I hope.
>>>>>
>>>>>No aircon but gas for heating & cooking.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>All Bio paints inside, No PVC in the ground or for
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>water-in plumbing. It
>>>
>>>
>>>>>was
>>>>>very difficult to
>>>>>
>>>>>decide on the best building materials from a
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>sustainability & toxicity
>>>
>>>
>>>>>perspectivre and in some
>>>>>
>>>>>cases pretty well impossible to avoid. Eg glues,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>laminates.
>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>I have the shower & laundry pipes diverted to a
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>greywater pump
>>>
>>>
>>>>>and will be used for sub-surface around my fruit
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>trees when required.
>>>
>>>
>>>>>Irrigation channels not yet setout &
>>>>>
>>>>>considering alternatives. Reedbed would be great
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>but
>>
>>
>>>space an issue.
>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Backyard &, Frontyard orchard/food forest is very
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>juvenile but so far
>>>
>>>
>>>>>planted Lemonade, Grapefruit, Lime, Avocado,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>Banana,
>>
>>
>>>>>Paw Paw, feijoas, figs, mandarin, orange,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>strawberry
>>
>>
>>>guavas, pomegranate,
>>>
>>>
>>>>>grapes, passionfruit, mulberry, lilly pilly, with
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>a
>>
>>
>>>plan to have about 30
>>>
>>>
>>>>>fruit trees. Dwarfed where possible.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Garden with veges all starting but slowly in
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>winter.
>>
>>
>>>Incorporating herbs,
>>>
>>>
>>>>>groundcovers, edible perrenials & weeds,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>wormfarms,
>>
>>
>>>as many compost piles
>>>
>>>
>>>>>I
>>>>>can scavange up etc. Chooks soon.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>I love the garden and hope to produce all my fruit
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>&
>>
>>
>>>veg in 5-8 years.
>>>
>>>
>>>>>Seedsaving also. I am very passionate about health
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>-sustainable local
>>>
>>>
>>>>>organics (great expo yesterday), & solutions to
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>the
>>
>>
>>>energy future.
>>>
>>>
>>>>>Considering future direction locally, particularly
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>my kids infants/primary
>>>
>>>
>>>>>school when they start. I work as a muso so
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>luckily
>>
>>
>>>have more time than a
>>>
>>>
>>>>>9
>>>>>to 5er.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Thanks for reading
>>>>>
>>>>>Regards
>>>>>
>>>>>Matt Heffernan or as my friends calls me - permy
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>dorc!
>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  _____
>>>>>
>>>>>Search for local singles online @ Lavalife - Click
>>>>><http://g.msn.com/8HMBENAU/2731??PS=47575>  here
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>>permaculture-oceania mailing list
>>>>>permaculture-oceania at lists.cat.org.au
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>http://lists.cat.org.au/mailman/listinfo/permaculture-oceania
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>_______________________________________________
>>>>permaculture-oceania mailing list
>>>>permaculture-oceania at lists.cat.org.au
>>>>
>>>>
>>>http://lists.cat.org.au/mailman/listinfo/permaculture-oceania
>>>
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>permaculture-oceania mailing list
>>>permaculture-oceania at lists.cat.org.au
>>>http://lists.cat.org.au/mailman/listinfo/permaculture-oceania
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
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>>>permaculture-oceania at lists.cat.org.au
>>>http://lists.cat.org.au/mailman/listinfo/permaculture-oceania
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
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>>permaculture-oceania at lists.cat.org.au
>>http://lists.cat.org.au/mailman/listinfo/permaculture-oceania
>>
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