No subject

I would say the sooner you can get Julie over the better.  I picked as
many brains as I could and still wish I would have known more when I
made a few of my many decisions.

Good luck and regards
Janet

-----Original Message-----
From: permaculture-oceania-admin at lists.cat.org.au
[mailto:permaculture-oceania-admin at lists.cat.org.au] On Behalf Of Jo
Bodey
Sent: Thursday, 17 February 2005 4:10 AM
To: permaculture-oceania at lists.cat.org.au
Subject: Re: [permaculture-oceania] systems and ethics

Going to the convergence?  I wish!  I'm in Midwest WA - working - and
trying
to get set up on 10 acres of ex farmland.  I have almost completed the
house, water tanks, etc. and am using every spare cent over the next 18
months getting my mortgage paid off.  I would love to have gone, just
for
some intellectual stimulation and to sit down with lots of like minded
people, listen, learn and get ideas/see if my plans are feasible, or are
there better ways to set about things!  Julie Firth is only about 30km
away
so I am hoping to get her in for a consultation/advice in the near
future to
save me making any really stupid mistakes, but otherwise its working
from
books, the internet and trial and error.  Maybe the next time the
convergence comes to WA?!

Regards

Jo
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Miltech" <miltech at bigpond.com>
To: <permaculture-oceania at lists.cat.org.au>
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 2:24 PM
Subject: RE: [permaculture-oceania] systems and ethics


> You know, I am really seriously thinking about it and I really would
> like to do 5 days on the invisibles and Chapter 14 of the Designers'
> Manual in a separate workshop.  I find even when I allow a full day
for
> that in a PDC it is simply not enough.
>
> Hey Jo, are you going to be at the convergence?  If so maybe we can
get
> together and talk this systems stuff.  I have a few dedicated permie
> mates who are also thinking along similar lines and it would make for
a
> great conversation, idea exchange and a boost for me to really get
> things going....without the people stuff in place we are really just
> rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic...every time we make a gain,
> get a win....it's the systems that knock us back.  We must be able to
> apply Permaculture Design to such systems and make them work.
>
> Regards
> Janet
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: permaculture-oceania-admin at lists.cat.org.au
> [mailto:permaculture-oceania-admin at lists.cat.org.au] On Behalf Of Jo
> Bodey
> Sent: Saturday, 12 February 2005 2:36 PM
> To: permaculture-oceania at lists.cat.org.au
> Subject: Re: [permaculture-oceania] systems and ethics
>
> I would love to read the book Janet!  I hope you are thinking of
writing
> it
> when you've finished thinking it all through.  I know there are plenty
> of
> books out there, and have done some study on social/economic systems,
> power,
> etc., in the past but it would be nice to have it all put in a
> Permaculture
> concept.
>
> Regards
>
> Jo
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Miltech" <miltech at bigpond.com>
> To: <permaculture-oceania at lists.cat.org.au>
> Cc: "'dave clark'" <pdaveclark at yahoo.com>
> Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 8:13 AM
> Subject: RE: [permaculture-oceania] systems and ethics
>
>
> > Hi Terry,
> > Hi Terry,
> > This is a fundamental question and one that is critical to educators
> of
> > all types as there is not a lot of time to turn it around (some say
> none
> > at all).
> > As an optimist I feel we can do something and we must try.
> >
> > I really think we know "what is going wrong" on the symptomatic
level
> > and we sure know "what we can do about it" on that same physical
> symptom
> > level.  The question for me is "Why is it that we know what is wrong
> and
> > how to fix it that we still can't fix it?" and that brings up your
> > answer of SYSTEMS.  The human systems that have been put in place
that
> > cut across universal laws.  They are human designed, mechanistic,
take
> > account of the limited mathematical and scientific knowledge of
> previous
> > centuries.
> >
> > We have so lost touch with our physical world that natural systems'
> > models are not learned from birth. Many do not know what direction
the
> > sun shines or the wind is coming from, children have to be told hot
> air
> > rises, and most importantly consequences are removed.  We have
created
> a
> > human world and imposed it on a natural one and at the moment both
are
> > about to give.
> >
> > We have to learn that our whole physical world is made up of
> > organizations...at the molecular level, the cellular level, at the
> > organism level and so up to complicated eco systems.
> > Humans have devised organizations but in their case the welfare of
> each
> > individual cell is not the concern of the system, in fact we all
know
> > examples of the organizations that destroy their own cells, this may
> be
> > political organizations, financial organizations etc.
> >
> > Human organizations are generally formed for the benefit of
> individuals,
> > small groups of individuals and families. And these are made to work
> in
> > a pyramidal model....just throw more of the cells in to keep the top
> of
> > the organisation going (the "gun fodder", the "useless eaters" of
> other
> > theorists) Where as in contrast, in natural systems, the bits that
> don't
> > work fail and drop out of the system.  The benefit of the cells is
the
> > primary concern not the pleasure or comfort of a select few.
> >
> > So we need to understand the natural world but now human-devised
> systems
> > have removed us from this natural world- model in an ever increasing
> > rate.
> > (Can't go out in the sun, can't swim in the river, can't walk to
> school
> > without a body guard, can't catch your own water, can't treat your
own
> > waste and so on...all permies know these restrictions to self
reliance
> > really well.)  But removing most of the population from natural
> systems
> > and putting them in cities means that most of the decisions occur in
> the
> > city from city dwellers who may (but usually and increasingly not)
> have
> > a strong link to nature and an understanding of natural laws and
> natural
> > consequences.
> >
> > It is imperative that we now educate our children within natural
> > settings, that they absorb the information that allows them to
> > (intuitively) understand organisation, systems, the place, role and
> > consequences of chaos, and know the universal laws and apply them to
> > both the physical and the non-physical world.  And hope we are not
too
> > late to be able to challenge the dysfunctional (cancerous)
> organizations
> > that have been set up by those with individual gain in mind rather
> than
> > those that accept feedback, benefit the individual cells as well as
> the
> > whole organisation (organism).
> >
> > I can talk about this for a very long time...next chapter would be
> POWER
> > then the next would be TAKING BACK THE POWER, the next would be "BY
> > CHOICE OR BY CATASTROPHE, then SYSTEMS" THINKING THE NEW HOPE, and
> > finally HOW TO GAIN SYSTEMS' THINKING.
> >
> > I have been thinking about this for a very long time...hence my
> passion,
> > and I have been working with some like minds towards this but at a
> very
> > slow pace and with opposition from the organizations and even from
> some
> > permies who fear hierarchy (mainly because human hierarchical models
> are
> > so consumptive of the cells that make them but natural hierarchical
> > systems support all functional parts of the system)
> >
> > Hope this gives some food for thought.  I am happy to send further
> > papers and discussions if you are interested.
> >
> > Fond regards to you Terry
> > Janet Millington
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: permaculture-oceania-admin at lists.cat.org.au
> > [mailto:permaculture-oceania-admin at lists.cat.org.au] On Behalf Of
> Terry
> > Leahy
> > Sent: Thursday, 10 February 2005 3:18 PM
> > To: permaculture-oceania at lists.cat.org.au
> > Subject: [permaculture-oceania] systems and ethics
> >
> > Dear Permaculture fans,
> >
> > I was wondering if I could get any comment on this little statement.
> I
> > am
> > working with John Coates - a social worker environmentalist from
> Canada
> > -
> > on a paper with a fairly general aim - what is going wrong and what
> can
> > be
> > done about it!  We are writing different bits and he created a short
> > statement of what he thinks the new environmentalist paradigm for
> > culture
> > is, which I was not entirely sure I agreed with.  After thinking
about
> > it
> > for a while I thought I had better come up with an alternative and
am
> > wondering what permaculturists might think about all this.  His
> version
> > I
> > have labelled "holism" and my own version I have called "systems"
> >
> > HOLISM
> >
> > Wholeness: We are WHOLE beings. Earth is ONE Community.
> > Diversity and complexity exist within the whole
> >
> > Interdependence: Earth exists to be shared by all things. Limits
> > exist as individual well-being is dependent on  the well being of
all.
> >
> >
> > Emergence: The Universe, Earth, and Humanity are unfolding
> > Every being plays a role in their own emergence and that of the
whole.
> >
> > SYSTEMS
> >
> > Systems:  Life on Earth is a geological and biological system.
Within
> > this
> > overarching whole there are many overlapping and interlocking
> subsystems
> > (ecologies, catchments, villages, economies etc).  While all objects
> and
> > living beings may be conceived as independent in particular
contexts,
> > they
> > are also tied into many systems.  Given the power of our technology,
> our
> > survival and that of other species requires that we pay careful
> > attention
> > to these interactions.  Changes made to any element can have
cascading
> > and
> > potentially disastrous effects.  We have to make sure that we are
not
> > cutting the stitch that will unravel the whole cardigan.
> >
> > Love: While many of the things that humans can take pleasure in are
> > quite
> > obvious - a dry bed, interesting work, respect, good sex etc. - it
is
> > also
> > becoming more and more clear that we can get intense joy out of
love.
> > Caring for other people and other beings is a great pleasure for our
> > species.  We can call this "spiritual growth" but the experience is
no
> > more
> > insubstantial than any more mundane pleasure.  The most basic
> expression
> > of
> > our love for other beings is to share the planet and its resources.
> >
> > A Link: While there is no substitute for good science, our chances
of
> > survival as a species depend on us developing our capacities to care
> for
> > and feel empathy for other people and other living beings.  With
them,
> > we
> > share many of the systems which make up life on earth and our care
and
> > attention to their needs can help us to pay attention in ways that
> will
> > end
> > up helping us to survive.
> >
> > Emergence: Emergence is a property of systems.  What emerges from
the
> > operation of any system and its interactions with other systems are
> > always
> > developments that cannot be deduced from an examination of the
> elements
> > of
> > a system.  These emerging properties are ongoing.  The Universe,
> Earth,
> > and
> > Humanity are unfolding. Every being plays a role in their own
> emergence
> > and
> > that of the whole.
> >
> > Terry
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > permaculture-oceania mailing list
> > permaculture-oceania at lists.cat.org.au
> >
http://lists.cat.org.au/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/permaculture-oceania
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > permaculture-oceania mailing list
> > permaculture-oceania at lists.cat.org.au
> >
http://lists.cat.org.au/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/permaculture-oceania
> >
>
>
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