[permaculture-oceania] RE: stay rosy

Sat Jul 8 22:46:21 EST 2006

Dear April, Laurence, Russ, Jed and all you Permies,
As much as I don't like it when I hear people talking about "long term sustainability" as if there is a short term version, I also don't think there is 'Sustainability' glowing brightly on one side of the ring and 'Un-sustainability' lurking in the shadows on the other with nothing in between.

I have found the concept of the 'Transitional Society' or 'Transitional' activities very helpful over the years. As Permies we do not wish to live mindless consumerist lives, but we also don't achieve our aims by pretending that we don't live in the society we do. This latter kind of thinking can lead to things like self-sufficiency at the expense of community, or walking past a skip with useful stuff in it but not fishing it out because it is a product of an un-sustainable society.

We live in and sometimes on the waste stream of Western culture. Every time I fish some brilliant, useful, expensive item from a skip I think to my self "this can't continue". But while it does surely we have a responsibility to use this 'waste' in the systems/lifestyles we lead? 

I keep many skills of repair alive with my skip hunting, these are skills that are useful now, and will continue being useful in a society that no longer wastes its resources in quite the brazen, callous way we do now.

Still Russ I know and support why your co-op doesn't give out used plastic bags. If co-op members who forget to bring their own bags can get a used one, then they will never learn. The only way to teach yourself new behavoiur is to be hard with your self. When I first gave up plastic bags I had a few times when I had arrived at the market without my own bags, when I realised I forced my self to turn around and go home and get them, I soon learned. In the context of a food co-op this is just collective behaviour change.

Joel Meadows
>From the richly skipped and hard rubbished suburb of Richmond, inner Melbourne, where the non-flat screened televisions fall like rain, the brown Christmas trees (great for packing my bee smoker) lie like little beached whales and the laneway olives give such succulent oil.

-----Original Message-----
From: permaculture-oceania-bounces at lists.cat.org.au on behalf of Russ Grayson
Sent: Sun 7/2/2006 9:58 PM
To: permaculture-oceania
Subject: Re: [permaculture-oceania] stay rosy

Nice example, April, your plastic bag hat - can I turn it into a dilemma for
the rest of us? It's a good subject for a philosophy (or emergy) discussion
in Permaculture: is reusing discarded non-renewables, then discarding them
(or recycling the material) at the end of their life a sustainable practice?

The food co-op I am a member of says no - they refuse donations of used
plastic shopping bags that clearly could be reused before being finally
discarded. Many people, on the other hand, reuse plastic bags before the
appearance of holes or soiling renders them unusuable, whereupon they are
commonly discarded to the bin (and landill).  They say that their reuse of
the bags gives additional life to a single-use product, and therefore has
environmental benefit and virtue.

Here's the philosophical dilemma: does reuse of already-discarded products
or those (like water bottles) designed for single use constitute a practice
that, in some way, could be regarded as contributing to 'sustainability'?

This is a serious question and it is one I encounter at times, so getting
your perspectives might prove useful to me at least.

An aside: I have seen at both the Randwick Ecoliving Fair and the recent
Warringah Council World Environment Day fair, sellers with carry bags,
purses and similar utilitarian items made from discarded popper containers
(used for drinks) that seems similar to April's description of her reused
plastic bag hat. These sell for quite high prices - such as around $45 for a
shopping bag, giving a tangible meaning to the idea of turning waste into
money. They are imported from India, I think. Is there a potential
waste-to-reuse cottage industry here for the enterprising Permaculture
stall-holder?

Another aside, this one for people who work for councils or other
organisations that bulk buy reusable shopping bags for giving away to
people: you can now avoid those plastic reusables which, although they
reduce the number of single use plastic shopping bags, eventually have to be
discarded as non-degradable material. A group of Bondi women now imports
hessian bags from Bangladesh and can place advance bulk orders. You could
have the bags stencilled with your own logo and name or a message in
Australia.

Thanks, April, for letting me turn your example into a dilemma.

..Russ

On 30/6/06 2:58 PM, "April Sampson-Kelly" <april at permaculturevisions.com>
wrote:

> I might have a reputation for plain english, but i could help get in on this
> one: 2.    Is it possible for any project that uses non renewable minerals &
> energy to be classed as sustainable?.

> If i make a hat out of plastic shopping bags i find at the tip, i cut the bags
> up and knit them into the hat then i am making a new product from non
> renewablt minerals and energy, i am using human energy in my knitting (and yes
> a couple of metal knitting needles, which are degradable - and NO i will not
> go back to living before the bronze age) to conserve human energy (heat loss
> through my head, and possible skin cancer from sun-burn) when the hat ages
> from sun and wind and physical movement, i can then put it back where i found
> it or it can be recycled.
> 
> how is that simple project not sustainable?
> 
> I would prefer to invest my energy in knitting/weaving banana leaves because
> i can throw the hat or forget where i put it and it will decompose effectively
> somewhere. but the point is, the project did only good, not harm and used non
> renewable minerals.
> 
> I usually see comments of this nature from young people and when they follow
> this kind of negative thinking they can come to the sad conclusion that they
> themselves, are nothing but a burdeon on the planet.  This scares me.
> Permaculture has to stay positive in order to recognise opportunities!
> 
> April
>    -----Original Message-----
>   From: permaculture-oceania-bounces at lists.cat.org.au
> [mailto:permaculture-oceania-bounces at lists.cat.org.au]On Behalf Of Laurence
> Gaffney
>   Sent: Thursday, 29 June 2006 10:31 AM
>   To: permaculture-oceania at lists.cat.org.au
>   Subject: [permaculture-oceania] RE:- Hello,not all's rosy when it comes to
> opinions on ecovillages
> 
> 
>   Thank you Russ for your post. It is through such discussion that
> Permaculture People can see their way a little more clearly.
> 
>   Some comments:-
>   1.    It is relatively easy to attach a theoretical definition to the word
> "SUSTAINABLE",  but how do we know whether the practical projects that we
> undertake are sustainable?  What criteria do we use to determine the
> sustainability of some thing?  What size box do we draw around the something
> to commence the analysis? Is it possible to meaningfully measure the
> material and energy flows across such a boundary.
> 
>   2.    Is it possible for any project that uses non renewable minerals &
> energy to be classed as sustainable?.
> 
>   3.    In a world where our current ecological footprint is apparently
> already beyond the earths carrying capacity can any new development
> contribute to sustainability?
> 
>   4.    The claim from 'Alchemist" that he/she could make an ecovillage
> sustainable by doing certain things is simply not credible. In fact in my
> view anyone claiming sustainability is not credible. It is something that we
> may aspire to but probably never attain.    The frequent use of the word by
> Permaculture People is an embarrassment.
> 
>   5.   However it is from projects such as  THE HEIJ HUT at the Aldinga Arts
> Eco village that the overall pool of knowledge on practical strategies that
> reduce our ecological footprints is increased. Elizabeth & her husband are
> to be congratulated for having a go. Even if such projects ultimately only
> teach us what not to do it is still a small step forward I think.
> 
>   6.    It is unlikely that the filling of the hollow concrete blocks with
> more concrete would increase the insulative performance of the wall. The
> overall "R Value" of the wall would probably be reduced by this measure.
> However in this "reverse brick veneer" situation such a measure should
> contribute to an improved "thermal performance" of the house due to the
> extra mass which I guess was the intention.
> 
>   7.    Their is some evidence to support the notion that Village scale is
> likely to be the most appropriate size for human settlements.
> 
> 
>   Laurence Gaffney
> 
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.7/379 - Release Date: 29/06/06
> _______________________________________________
> permaculture-oceania mailing list
> permaculture-oceania at lists.cat.org.au
> http://lists.cat.org.au/mailman/listinfo/permaculture-oceania

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
RUSS GRAYSON
journalism, online content production, photojournalism, instructional
manuals, media services for overseas aid

PO Box 1045, Manly, NSW 1655 AUSTRALIA
info at pacific-edge.info
P: 0414 065 203
www.pacific-edge.info

TerraCircle international development team, Oceania
www.terracircle.org.au

Australian City Farms & Community Gardens Network
www.communitygarden.org.au
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

_______________________________________________
permaculture-oceania mailing list
permaculture-oceania at lists.cat.org.au
http://lists.cat.org.au/mailman/listinfo/permaculture-oceania

-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/ms-tnef
Size: 7970 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://jasper.cmsarchitects.com/pipermail/pil-pc-oceania/attachments/20060708/f52bb217/attachment.bin 