[permaculture-oceania] Help needed in planning our PC farm

[Darrington, Paul A]

Thanks Jedd, I really appreciate you taking the time to answer my essay of questions, along with everyone else!
most of my questions have been answered, and others will be answered by the books i'll be ordering.

About the only unanswered question is that regarding which species of waterfowl, chickens & other birds work best in the garden & in an orchid.
I don't expect anyone to be able to answer this, as there would be 100's of suitable species, 
but does anyone know of a good book on this?

much appreciated,
Paul

-----Original Message-----
From: permaculture-oceania-bounces at lists.cat.org.au
[mailto:permaculture-oceania-bounces at lists.cat.org.au]On Behalf Of jedd
Sent: Thursday, 15 June 2006 1:27 PM
To: permaculture-oceania
Subject: Re: [permaculture-oceania] Help needed in planning our PC farm


On Thursday 15 June 2006 7:19 am, Paul wrote:
 ] We'll be incorporating many swales
 ] & a series of collection ponds throughout the property,

 On a half acre .. which is somewhere around the 100 x 50 metres size,
 you probably don't want to put too many swales in there.  The
 Designer's Manual has the good oil on this stuff.  In that part of
 the world, and assuming you're not too far inland, then I'm guessing
 your big problem is dealing with excessive periodic rain, yeah?

 ] We intend to "scaffold / stack" our plants as they would grow in
 ] their natural rainforest habitats, however the books all
 ] recommend full sun for just about every tree.

 Well, yes, it's fair to say that all fruiting plants need sun if you
 want to get any/much fruit from them -- but dappled light can
 work in some cases, and you can also factor in fruiting times
 with sun angle at those times, with aspect thrown in to complicate
 things even more.  Then there's the form (natural, and how you're
 happy to maintain) of the tree over its life, plus of course climate
 and soil types will have a big impact on how happy plants will be
 when growing very close to their neighbours.

 (
 With that in mind, one example you cited sounds a bit optimistic:
 ] ... what about a large nut tree, with a Cherimoya or
 ] Mulberry planted beneath it, and then a Brazilian Cherry,
 ] Papaya's, or Monsterea planted beneath those?

 A mulberry will out-grow most nut trees, and for several months
 of the year prevent nearly any light getting to the ground under
 it.  You can prune them, of course, and that's where the human input
 into the plant's form comes in, but it's a regular and sizeable task.
 The two century Australian tradition of planting your mulberry tree
 in the chook run and then ignoring it really does make a lot of sense.
 Oh, and after twenty years of hearing my mum call it Monsterea, it
 was a bit of a shock to find out that it's actually Monstera.
 )

 But don't think you're alone in going through this process.  On the
 upside, though, remember that most plants respond well to *some*
 stress, and at the end of the day they are, for the most part, quite
 adaptable and very forgiving.  Treat them like weeds (just don't
 spray Roundup on 'em ;) and some plants respond spectacularly well.

 ] I assume plant stacking and compatibility also depends on the
 ] tree's root structures, planting two shallow rooted trees next to
 ] each other would force plants to compete for nutrients. Or
 ] looking at the flipside of this scenario; would the intertwining
 ] of two plants root systems create a symbiotic relationship, where
 ] nutrients excreted by one plant are taken up by the other?

 I don't know if roots excrete many nutrients.  You do get leaf drop,
 and the roots will intertwingle, with the resulting water and
 nutrient stress possibly hardening up the plant, but possibly just
 pissing them both off.  Some plants excrete nasties (obvious examples
 being Juglans (walnut) spp, sunflower family) from their roots, which
 makes companion planting a bit tricky.  I heard recently the claim
 that most established trees have somewhere around 25% of their roots
 die off each year.

 As you said at the start, though, this is an educational process for
 you, so find out as much as you can up-front, but then experiment
 with different plants.  It's time-consuming, but you can feed your
 results back into .. well, you can jot them down.  You may find that
 if you're using grafted trees, a lot of the documented root form is
 misleading, or at least grossly over-estimated.

 Places you can find information include (but aren't limited to):
 Companion Gardening in Australia - Judith Collins
   (superb book, highly recommended)  I'm sure there are other
   similar books, but this is the only one I've got/read.  Remember
   that you can usually extrapolate genus-level stuff fairly safely.
 Permaculture books often have sections on companion planting and/or
   root form, above-ground form, light requirements, etc.
 Various usenet / yahoo-style gardening groups, probably best
   for archive trawling, possibly good for asking targetted questions
   about specific species.  As with any list or newsgroup, loiter for
   a few weeks first, learn the netiquette, and hunt down the list's
   FAQ (if they have one) before posting.

 ] Ground covers are of obvious benefit to the orchid, but the
 ] 'companion planting' of fruit & nut tree's does not appear to be
 ] as well documented.

 Ask any citrus grower what you should grow under a citrus tree,
 and you'll be told to grow nothing.  Citrus are shallow-rooted, and
 hate having any competition within their drip-zone.  If the climate
 isn't particularly harsh, you'll also probably be told to avoid any
 kind of mulch.

 Ask any permy and you'll get a substantially different response,
 even though we're talking about the same plants.

 Both people know exactly what they're doing, so how can this be?

 The point is that you should hunt down all the documentation you
 can find, and then treat it with much caution.  Or at least, treat
 it all as rough rules of thumb, or a 'it worked for me, here, so it
 might work for you, there' guide.  You get the idea.

 ] But for the here and now, and there any books you could recommend
 ] to help us in the design stage?

 The designers' manual is the obvious reference, but this is a serious
 commitment of your time.  I'm not even half way through the thing
 (but then, I'm easily distracted).

 There are fare more accessible takes on same, and the equally obvious
 example here is Rosemary Morrow's Earth User's Guide To Permaculture.

 Others can provide better insight into the huge range of books
 available, as most of my texts are very specific, mostly unread, or
 more likely both.

 ] I've also been trying to find information on which Chicken, Duck
 ] & Geese species are best for the garden?
 ] Are there any varieties to avoid or recommended?

 OOC, what leads you to think you need all three (and/or no
 other bird species)?

 Jedd.
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