[Pil-pc-oceania] Pil-pc-oceania Digest, Vol 6, Issue 10
stevehart
stevehart at raglan.co.nz
Thu Apr 19 05:59:38 EST 2007
Human nutrient/sewage/resource/black gold
This is a great subject that is raised often throughout every corner
of Permaculture. It is a subject that I tooo have studied, in fact,
worldwide since 1982. The best domestic scale system i have come
across for Aust conditions, which include attitude etc etc etc is in
fact from an Aust. company "RELN". Using their half round 450mm dia
perforated corrugated plastic pipe. The water cistern can use
recirculated grey water if course then flush through wastes to a
methane digeting septic tank then out through the reln system. Many
households can b e connected to the one methane digester and reln
system. The key is to ensure the base of the reln trench is laser
level approx dimension for a good sized household of 7 could be
20m.long 1.5m wide 0.6m deep. You also plant leafy greens over the
reln trench. Bananas are great. Consider also,lettuces, silver beet,
monsterra etc etc. I'm sure Phil Gall can add confirmation to this
for he has designed many in the Bega Shire.
Where exactly is this establishment intended for ?...sorry I have not
read all the communications. If you need any more detail please ask.
Regards Steve Hart
On 18/04/2007, at 7:38 PM, pil-pc-oceania-
request at lists.permacultureinternational.org wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Human nutrients & Toilets & greywater systems (David Arnold)
> 2. Re: Human nutrients & Toilets & greywater systems (mossmans)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 13:04:19 +1000
> From: "David Arnold" <arnold.vt at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Pil-pc-oceania] Human nutrients & Toilets & greywater
> systems
> To: "permacultue discussion list"
> <pil-pc-oceania at lists.permacultureinternational.org>
> Message-ID:
> <a93afbf30704172004p67180bffh57def4099a5aae3a at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Joel, Graeme and all,
>
> The basic elements of the Biolytix that Joel described are very
> similar to
> the 'Worm Farm Waste System" that is also commercially available.
> In that
> case I understand they use what they describe as 'special screens'
> rather
> than a layer of something like onion bags full of onion bags [Joel's
> description of the Biolytix base layer] as the base to catch and
> hold the
> solids while they decompose.
>
> Conventional septic systems can be converted to this setup. Worm
> Farm Waste
> Systems offer to do this.
>
> The septic needs to have suitable screens and base layer of non
> degradable
> material set up at, say, 1/2 or 2/3 height inside the tank, and a
> new outlet
> close to the base of the tank. This new outlet may be problematic for
> gravity draining systems, requiring a much deeper trench and
> substantial
> fall in the land to allow the drain to resurface downhill. Many
> systems on
> flatter land these days have a pump well and submersible pump already
> installed after the septic tank, so it is just a matter of getting the
> septic to drain from its base to the pump well.
>
> The difference between Biolytix, the Worm Farm Waste System, and
> the home
> septic tank conversion described above is in the degree to which
> regulatory
> concerns have been satisfied, and the extent to which potentially
> poor or
> lack of management by the householder has been designed out of the
> arrangement. I don't know every detail of the commercial systems,
> but I
> suspect that a well set-up and managed home septic tank conversion is
> capable of producing waste water just as well treated as the
> commercial
> systems.
>
> I agree that the basic form of this technology passes the
> 'appropriate' test
> for a remote village, and it is potentially a very cost effective
> retrofit
> of existing septic systems. Where water toilets already exist,
> passing
> stored irrigation water through the water toilet, and carrying the
> nutrients
> safely to, say, fruit trees, is a good way to make the best of this
> situation.
>
> The disadvantage of the water toilet in this example is not the use of
> water, which may be being sent to those fruit trees anyway, but the
> loss of
> control of the use, and the timing of the use, of the nutrients. I
> would be
> reluctant to use this waste water on vegetable gardens, for
> example, just as
> a precaution. A bucket toilet, with follow up composting, gives
> much more
> control and choice over how those nutrients are used.
>
> By the way, health inspectors very very rarely return to inspect
> septic
> systems after their initial approval, especially if they are
> functioning
> well and not causing any complaints. And even an inspection is
> only likely
> to be superficial, checking that there are no surface odours or
> stagnant
> water, perhaps unless a 'householder innovation' has been reported and
> complained about. Though it would be hard and potentially
> embarassing for
> them to prosecute against an innovation that was clearly an
> improvement.
> Sometimes we may decide not to wait for regulations to catch up
> with the
> times.
>
> Regards,
>
> David
>
> Violet Town, where in our dreamy but dry autumn our household waste
> water is
> greatly appreciated by the orchard, especially since the salt load
> from
> washing detergent was reduced!
>
>
> On 18/04/07, Meadows, Joel <JMeadows at portphillip.vic.gov.au> wrote:
>>
>> Dear All,
>>
>> I was impressed with the presentation on Biolitix at the Melbourne
>> convergence and Dean Camoron's work in developing it. I think at
>> its core is
>> a system that can be low-energy, stable and as Graeme says
>> "technology
>> appropriate for a remote village in Bangladesh or Zambia".
>>
>>
>>
>> Essentially it is a very simple (but clever) biological system
>> with a bit
>> of high tech control gear. I'm sure there are lots of Permies out
>> there like
>> me who have looked at the Biolitix and thought "I could build one
>> of those".
>>
>>
>>
>> Inside the tank are several layers of non degradable medium (they
>> look
>> like orange onion bags stuffed with similar material) that the
>> water and
>> solids go in to the top of. In the media are worms, beetles and other
>> micro-organisms probably found in a wetish compost heap from a
>> similar
>> climate. These organisms live off the solids in the waste water
>> and because
>> of the size and diversity of space in the tank find their niche in
>> the
>> layers and spaces of the system. The water passes through and
>> solids are
>> physically and biologically filtered and consumed down through the
>> layers of
>> the system. The water that comes out the bottom is nutrient rich,
>> but has
>> almost no sediment as the biological action within the tank has
>> caught and
>> utilised the solids. Dean suggested they can be run without the
>> pump if you
>> set up the system to be gravity fed, and most of the control
>> aspects of the
>> system seem to be there to make them 'acceptable' in a highly
>> regulated
>> Western market and are not essential to its function.
>>
>>
>>
>> The cleaning of the system is a little confusing as it seems that
>> with
>> commercial units only a Biolityx rep can come and clean the
>> system. So
>> unlike dry compost systems where we get valuable solids out, I'm
>> not sure if
>> the same can be said for Biolityx. Dean justified this aspect at the
>> convergence by saying that the matter that was removed was used to
>> seed
>> other Biolityx systems. The systems also needed very rare
>> intervention, and
>> I believe that the majority of the nutrient processed by the
>> system would
>> end up as suspended solids in the liquid, with almost no material
>> getting
>> stuck in the system (as long as you keep un-degradables out).
>>
>>
>>
>> It would be great if the essence of what makes the system work
>> were freely
>> available but this is of course a proprietary secret. Any home-
>> made biolityx
>> systems and not going to be 'approved', and those who are likely
>> to make
>> such systems are unlikely to be able to afford to buy one. We do
>> live in
>> crazy times!
>>
>>
>>
>> Any further thought?
>>
>>
>>
>> Joel Meadows
>>
>> Inner City Melbourne
>>
>> Damn Autumn in Melbourne is beautiful!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> From: pil-pc-oceania-bounces at lists.permacultureinternational.org
>> on behalf
>> of Graeme George - Earthcare Permaculture
>> Sent: Tue 4/17/2007 9:24 AM
>> To: permacultue discussion list
>> Subject: Re: [Pil-pc-oceania] Human nutrients & Toilets & greywater
>> systems
>>
>>
>> Matthew, Colin and others
>>
>> The Biolytix system and many other "off the shelf" technologies
>> that have
>> been given regulatory approval fit in with David Holmgren's second
>> scenario
>> for our energy descent future - "Green-Tech Stability". His first
>> scenario
>> is "Techno-Explosion", ie continuation of the current reliance on
>> technology
>> to solve all our problems with unlimited energy and resources,
>> which is of
>> course a fantasy. David's third scenario is "Earth Stewardship" using
>> Permaculture to design a gradual descent into a low-energy future.
>> The
>> fourth is "Atlantis", or total collapse. In David's public
>> presentations on
>> this he emphasises that the Green-tech and Earth stewardship
>> scenarios are
>> likely to run parallel courses for a short period in terms of
>> energy use but
>> must inevitably start to diverge as energy becomes scarcer/more
>> expensive.
>>
>> Thus, technologies such as Biolytix, even though they may use
>> permaculture
>> concepts in their design, can only be seen as transitional until
>> truly
>> sustainable systems become acceptable. I suggest that a reasonable
>> test is
>> the question "Is this technology appropriate for a remote village in
>> Bangladesh or Zambia ?" If the answer is no, then I don't see it
>> being part
>> of a sustainable low energy future. I agree that we need to be
>> able to
>> manage our own systems. Sustainable systems for basic services
>> such as waste
>> disposal need to be as self-regulating as possible and/or capable
>> of being
>> managed with minimum skills and training and requiring minimal
>> resources and
>> infrastructure for their establishment. I see most green-tech
>> solutions as
>> being the prerogative of the wealthy. Unfortunately we don't
>> currently have
>> much choice in our over-regulated society, as Colin has pointed
>> out. (David
>> also has a bit to say about getting around bureaucratic impediments!)
>>
>> For those who haven't heard David speak about these energy descent
>> scenarios, his PP presentation can be viewed as a PDF file on his
>> website (
>> www.holmgren.com.au), under Writings, Permaculture Solutions for the
>> Energy Descent Future.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Graeme
>>
>> Graeme George
>> Earthcare Permaculture
>> 35 Deering Ave, Healesville, Vic, 3777
>> (03) 5962 5070
>>
>> Matthew Bond wrote:
>>
>> Hi Colin,
>>
>> From what I've seen and heard about Biolytix I'm a great
>> supporter
>> however I must say I was a little suspicious of it when I heard
>> only people
>> from Biolytix could service it if there was a problem and
>> something about an
>> alarm that can be activated which sends a fault report back to
>> Biolytix via
>> the phone line (not too sure about that??) I think it would be
>> preferable
>> for the owner to learn how to maintain it. Then again, I don't
>> know how
>> viable it is to train someone to do the maintenance and there may
>> be other
>> issues. What are you thoughts on this?
>>
>> Matthew.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>>
>
>
> --
> David Arnold
> Permaculture Designer
> 4446 Murchison Rd
> Violet Town VIC AUS 3669
> 03 5798 1679
> arnold.vt at gmail.com
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> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 17:38:31 +1000
> From: "mossmans" <mossmans at internode.on.net>
> Subject: Re: [Pil-pc-oceania] Human nutrients & Toilets & greywater
> systems
> To: "'permacultue discussion list'"
> <pil-pc-oceania at lists.permacultureinternational.org>
> Message-ID: <5rqupe$3ev2tt at ipmail01.adl2.internode.on.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> The other day we had a blockage in our pipes going to our conventional
> "gardenmaster" septic system, it is a tank with lots of champbers
> which
> results in sadly chlorinated water being pumped out. We reuse all
> that
> water, but if anyone has any ideas on how I could build a holding
> tank to
> enable the chlorine to reduce before using it I would be happy.
>
> Anyway, the first chamber got blocked.. They said I would need a
> pumpout.
> so we have used some inguity (I think). When we took the big round
> concrete
> hole cover off, underneath was a lot of sludge, but it was full of
> worms, so
> I think if the worms are happy then it cant be all that bad ( we
> don't use
> any bad chemicals down the drains) so we used a long spade, and
> spaded the
> gunk out, and put it into a compost heap which will sit for a
> couple of
> years before being spread on non vegetable gardens. No pump out
> needed.
>
> So we have almost got that worm system unintentionally, but what
> I would
> like to know is how do the worms get down there in the first place??
>
> Sue
>
>
>
>
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