[Pil-pc-oceania] Pil-pc-oceania Digest, Vol 9, Issue 8
Col Ball
colball at aapt.net.au
Tue Jul 3 18:51:33 EST 2007
Permaculture politics - "Let a hundred flowers bloom" Mao
Analysis
I think that there needs to be a bit of analytical thinking and critical
analysis about politics here.
What is politics?
There's Mainstream politics - the Capitalist paradigm.
There's Alternative politics - indigenous, concensus
There's Revolutionary politics too - anarcho-syndicalists, socialists,
communists
There are myths that politics is about meeting society's needs, and
realities, that it is about the power of one group over another in
determining the distribution of resources
Ideology is required in the first instance to articulate what the issues
are, that are to be addressed by any group.
We experience the advanced capitalist system in Australia. The world does.
It is considered mainstream, its thinktanks and its political managerialists
(the parties in govt) and the whole system itself of producing commodities
for profit, not need, tell us this constantly. They make it sound so
normal, that it has always been so, and to say and act differently is to be
out of their law.
This is ideology. It's powerful stuff because it allows the ruling paradigm
(capitalism), the dominant discourses (bourgeois ideas and philosophies,
histories, and theories, and world views) to legitimise themselves.
Historically this has been gained by force and invasion ("power comes out of
the barrel of a gun", Mao) but in modern times it has surreptitiously been
maintained through the growth, centralisation of ownership, and control of
the media by the very same forces. People believe it and participate.
Without this "passive" cooperation by the population the managers (the
state) have to use force. This is fascism where the open rule of capital
continues its operations unfettered, protected by law and the state (eg.
modern Russia under Putin), whereas the workers and others (aboriginal,
refugees, women, children, environmentalists, peace workers, gays,
dissenters etc) have laws foisted upon them restricting their democratic
rights and access to natural justice.
Understanding politics means really understanding what ideology is in the
first instance otherwise there can be no common approach. And then this
also allows the idea that there may actually be other, or competing
ideologies out there.
One competing ideology says that the whole project of becoming a political
party within a capitalist framework is to support it and to provide it
legitimisation by participating in it and accepting its rules.
We know that it has been the history of capitalism since the industrial
revolution that is the culprit for the current world crisis's. The global
warming brought about by the un-relentless use of fossil fuel has been
driven by a logic of production and growth for the benefit of few. The
results have been global environmental catastrophe and collapse brought
about by the gross overexploitation of living and non living resources,
through ongoing perpetual war, toxic wastes and other factors not recorded
in the gross national product by mainstream economists, the modern times
alchemists, for that is how useful are their predictions.
All of the problems identified by environmentalists, ecologists,
sociologists, in fact all of the fields taken by a permaculturist to assess
and understand the situation have been caused by the capitalist mode of
production. Permaculture thinking and design approaches have very likely
solutions but I think that the real problem is that it needs to be mass
applied all over the planet right now. That, when you think about it means
we want all of the energy producers, auto and white goods makers, miners,
junk producers, petrochemicalists, militarists, agri monoculturists,
pharmaceuticals, fishers, bankers and investors etc. to stop what they are
doing?
Hardly. And that's the dilemma. We will not get what we want. The modern
legislature is designed to perpetuate the status quo and invests a lot of
energy in discrediting detractors. The media is a huge part of this. Don't
forget who owns it.
If permaculture participates in mainstream political electioneering I think
that it will diffuse its own best asset, people. Let the Green's do it.
Use what's already there. Infiltrate them to help fine tune policy more
permaculturally if that is required. People who vote conservatively may be
into permaculture but I think they have ethical dilemmas bigtime.
PC doers and thinkers need to be at the edge. I agree with Kerry Dawborn
when he says, " As we know, it's at the 'edges' that the greatest potential
for creativity, and therefore for appropriate responses to evolving
challenges, is found." It will be those at the edges who will be best
adapted and in potential positions for modelling and progressing appropriate
sustainability when radical change is imposed by further collapse of the
system.
I think that what attracts me about pc aside from its utmost common sense is
that it is already political. It is still radical, it is revolutionary in
its ideas, its ideology of saving the earth, it allows for guerrilla
activity and demands community. The community is not quite ready for it yet
because it is still constrained by the dominant paradigm of globalised
capital. Having a permaculture party in energy-draining Canberra is a
distraction.. Kerry's idea of coalition or multiple coalitions is good.
Let those who want to play parliamentary politics go for it. That system
needs more variety for sure and it will keep the big two - Tweedle dum and
Tweedle do (Libs and ALP) more on their toes if lots of little players get
into their playground.
If Bill's involved in this I'd say it is a last grab. He's very eager for
change in his time. One very important understanding that I have taken from
reading Tim Flannery's works though is the immensity of time in the
ecological history of this planet. Nature fills vacuums. We are not the
centre of the universe.
Colin Ball, PDC, Tagari. 1982
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Rough thoughts on the PPP (kerry dawborn)
2. political lobbying (steve_burns at wvi.org)
3. Re: Permaculture People's Party (Cecile)
4. Re: political lobbying (Ian Lillington)
5. Re: Permaculture People's politics (Ian Lillington)
6. polticorascals (Martin Naylor)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 12:00:01 +1000
From: kerry dawborn <kdawborn at bigpond.com>
Subject: Re: [Pil-pc-oceania] Rough thoughts on the PPP
To: permacultue discussion list
<pil-pc-oceania at lists.permacultureinternational.org>
Message-ID: <4689ADA1.2020908 at bigpond.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
You've made some very impassioned yet well-thought-out points Russ, most
of which I agree with. I'd be interested to know what you and others
think about my thoughts in my earlier message to PIL today, in response
to Tamara's message with the subject Permaculture People's Party 2,
regarding a coalition of independents, or some kind of lobby group....
cheers,
Kerry
pacific-edge wrote:
> I've just finished participating in the last of a three day, public
planning
> process that would see sustainability values and indicators incorporated
> into a local government City Plan. And, reading the PIL email this
evening,
> something occurred to me. It is this - that this local government
process -
> it's called the Compass To Sustainability and was facilitated by Lee
Hatcher
> from the Atkinson group in the USA - has been far more deliberative, far
> more partcipatory, far more democratic than the attempt to set up the
> Permacultuure People's Party (PPP) has been to date.
>
> Now, for a design system professing to 'care for people' and which makes
> periodic allusions to participation and consultation, it's saying
something
> that a local government can outdo it when it comes to democratic process.
>
> Realising this, other thoughts came. I recall Bill making public
statements,
> years back, that were very critical of the adversarial structure of the
> party political process. He spoke as if it were something to be eschewed,
> avoided as undesirable and having nothing to do with building sustainable
> societies.
>
> Now, it seems from correspondence on this listserv, permaculturists are to
> throw out those old ideas of Bill's and adopt those same adversarial
> practices that Bill criticised. Adverserial politics is, by nature (and
it's
> foolish to imagine you can play it any other way) competitive. Should we
> therefore be consistent and change that now-nuisance Permaculture
principle
> that proposes 'cooperation not competition' the other way around?
>
> Watching the flow of dialog on this listserv, it's pretty clear that
support
> for a PPP is far from universal. If the idea succeeds in capturing
> sufficient support, however, it could become a severe test of Permaculture
> and its future direction. Think about it - a PPP which gains enough public
> profile will paint (some might say 'taint') all practitioners of the
design
> system with the colours of its brush.
>
> The PPP - would it be another fringe, single issue party doomed to wander
> the political borderlands between existence and nonexistence, tottering
> forever on the edge of the void? If not, then what about policies? Emails
> suggest that Bill is to work on policies. But Bill has never claimed to be
a
> political strategist. Again - where's the opportunities for participation
by
> the broad band of Permaculture practitioners across this country?
> Permaculture's Second Ethic predisposes it to a participatory, democratic
> mode of operation, but where is the is deliberative democracy? Where is
the
> call to take part in policy formation on this country's two major
> Permaculture listservs? Where is it found on the PIL listserv, one of the
> main Permaculturte websites in this country? Are permaculturists to be
> dictated to when it comes to policy for a proto-political party that will
> probably lay claim to represent the design system in this country, our
work
> and our reputation? Those same political parties that Permaculture would
now
> compete with have already weakened democracy in this nation. Do we want
> Permaculture to add to this?
>
> And policies - what will the PPP's policy be on complex issues like Iraq -
> stay there? pull out and risk precipitating the already fractionalised
> nation deeper into civil war, sectarian conflict and into the hands of the
> doomsday cults of maniacal religionists and fanatical fudamentalists? And
> industrial relations? Australia's role in Asia-Pacific? Science policy and
> R&D investment? National water policy? Energy policy? Land management? The
> crises in Aboriginal communities? Defence policy? Poverty and the income
> gap? Social justice? Economic policy? The role of ministerial advisers and
> senior public servants? The relationship of Australia's intelligence
> agencies to government? Policies.
>
> Just passing thoughts.
>
> Now, there was recently a useful discussion on this listserv about the
> desirability of centralisation - that is, some form of representative,
> centralised process which would speak for Permaculture. The consensus, I
> believe, was that centralisation is undesirable. So how, then, would the
> centralised decision making that is part of the party political process be
> found acceptable?
>
> One of Permaculture's interesting aspects is that is has been the venue in
> which differing political attitudes find common ground. Take a look at the
> political spectrum espoused by permaculturists and you find it travels
from
> the Left, through the Greens (always a mixed palette of varying tints and
> shades) to the mainstream parties like the ALP and Libs (tweedledum &
> tweedledee) and then swings right out to the outer orbits of the lonely
> individualists of the Ann Rand libertarian far right where anarchism and
> neoliberalism become strange attractors and fellow travellers. How will
the
> PPP structure its appeal to this political melange?
>
> I've written that a party-politicised Permaculture could, perhaps, see the
> loss of its tentative presence within local government, especially among
> sustainability eduators, environmental/resource (water, waste) educators
and
> the odd planner (these, coincidentally, are sometimes Permaculture trained
> people) on account of policy that stipulates that local government
officers
> not support political parties in their work. I wonder, too, were PPP to
gain
> traction in future and develop a public profile, whether the ABC would be
> all that willing to promote it on programs like Gardening Australia?
>
> I imagine that the work in local government might continue, but probably
not
> branded as Permaculture.
>
> Looking at the flurry of email the PPP proposal has unleashed, I think it
> could have the potential to become a big issue in Permaculture. Except for
> those enthused with the idea, the reticience I detect suggests that,
rather
> than discussing policies for the fledgling party, it might be more
pertinent
> and less divisive to discuss whether Permaculture should become a party
> political entity at all. Bill did say - and I remember his stating this -
> that we should engage in careful and thoughtful deliberation rather than
> thoughtless and precipitative action.
>
> As for the Designer's Manual becoming the policy groundwork for PPP (I
> believe it has been suggested), the book was written 20 years ago as an
> amalgam of existing ideas drawn from differing practices. The world is now
> quite a different place than it was when the book was written. I'm not
> denigrating the work - far from it - but it is not a political manifesto
> ("Permaculturists of the world unite - you have nothing to lose but your
> illusions") nor is is a policy framework or even a policy directions
> document. Perhaps the hopeful can anticipate it becoming another Wealth of
> Nations or Das Kapital but it certainly is unlikely to become another
Little
> Red Book (those with long memories might explain this to those without).
>
> The idea still persists that Permaculture could be better placed to
practice
> its politics through seeking influence, educating people to change their
> behaviour and making use of Dr Robert Gillman's 'demonstration effect'
than
> through participation in the ethical wasteland that is party politics.
>
> There are currrent opportunities for permacultirists in the local climate
> action groups that have sprung up around the country and in the
> relocalisation agneda, still to be developed in this country. Are these
more
> appropriate venues for enacting Permaculture than a political party.
>
> I wonder if the PPP thing is important enough to deserve more discussion,
> perhaps in a more structured manner, perhaps at the coming convergence?
>
> Sorry if this is a bit stream-of-consciousness sounding, but that is what
it
> is.
>
> ...Russ Grayson
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
>
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 13:15:48 +1100
From: steve_burns at wvi.org
Subject: [Pil-pc-oceania] political lobbying
To: permacultue discussion list
<pil-pc-oceania at lists.permacultureinternational.org>
Message-ID:
<OF3C5584EE.45FE9DBA-ONCA25730D.000BE57A-CA25730D.000C6F18 at wvi.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Dear Kerry et al,
Hasn't this idea sparked some great discussion! excellent!
I think the idea of political lobbying or pressure is a great one -
influence is achievable where outright power may not be. I do hear
Tamara's comments about her letters, etc being ignored by pollies because
she is just one person, but concerted lobbying and community-level
participation haven't been seen as part of the identity for most permie
groups.... the focus has been more on gardening, orcharding, training
others, etc... these are all fantastic things (the community garden tour
went well yesterday, thanks for asking) - but it'd be great to see PC
groups engaging consciously with local politicians, Federal and State plus
local councillors, local govt planning departments, etc.
I would cite the ability of local level climate change coalitions to
achieve non-partisan political influence as an example of the kind of thing
we could be engaged in.
cheers,
Steve Burns
kerry dawborn
<kdawborn at bigpond
.com> To
Sent by: permacultue discussion list
pil-pc-oceania-bo <pil-pc-oceania at lists.permaculturei
unces at lists.perma nternational.org>
cultureinternatio cc
nal.org
Subject
Re: [Pil-pc-oceania] Rough thoughts
03 Jul 2007 12:00 on the PPP
PM
Please respond to
permacultue
discussion list
<pil-pc-oceania at l
ists.permaculture
international.org
>
You've made some very impassioned yet well-thought-out points Russ, most
of which I agree with. I'd be interested to know what you and others
think about my thoughts in my earlier message to PIL today, in response
to Tamara's message with the subject Permaculture People's Party 2,
regarding a coalition of independents, or some kind of lobby group....
cheers,
Kerry
>
__
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 12:01:16 +0930
From: "Cecile" <anhinga at internode.on.net>
Subject: Re: [Pil-pc-oceania] Permaculture People's Party
To: "'permacultue discussion list'"
<pil-pc-oceania at lists.permacultureinternational.org>
Message-ID: <001301c7bd1a$3c0af960$1101a8c0 at Anhinga>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hi Terry
While I support the principles of the Greens and think the Senators are
doing a great job I no longer support my State party and have resigned from
it. I held a senior position in it and the in fighting and self-seeking
rampant ambition was unbelievable - all ended with a bunch of us resigning
our positions - as aspect which continues. The Greens became yet another
poliltical party with their focus switched to getting elected and while
there is reason in that it should always come second to principles - not
override them.
If PPP can stick with the principles of permaculture it could create a
different model for politics and that is what I think would be exciting.
Just because it's a political party doesn't mean it has to follow the
practices of all the other parties just as a landholding permie doesn't have
to follow the practices of all the other landholders.
Cheers
Cecile
-----Original Message-----
From: pil-pc-oceania-bounces at lists.permacultureinternational.org
[mailto:pil-pc-oceania-bounces at lists.permacultureinternational.org] On
Behalf Of pacific-edge
Sent: Tuesday, 3 July 2007 10:09 AM
To: pil
Subject: Re: [Pil-pc-oceania] Permaculture People's Party
On 2/7/07 11:39 AM, "Terry Leahy" <Terry.Leahy at newcastle.edu.au> wrote:
> Dear Permaculture,
>
> Agree with those who worry that all this energy might better be spent
> working with the Greens or doing something to promote permaculture in
> its own right. I am wondering what it is that Permaculturists might
> have against the Greens party.T his has been suggested a number of
> times but I am not sure what specifically people are worried about
> with the Greens.
Their duplicitous role in voting against renewal of the lease for the
Eastern Suburbs Community Garden (Waverly Greens on Waverly Council).
In comparison, the Randwick Greens supported the campaign to retain the
community garden at UNSW.
This shows that the greens are somewhat erratic when it comes to policy and
in complying with their own myth of being suppportive of community.
> More importantly I am not sure that what we permaculturists might be
> worried about with the Greens would be the same across the movement.
> My own concern with the Greens is that their utopia - what we are
> working towards to replace the present social system - strikes me as
> unlikely to work; they favour what can be called a mixed economy model
> with aspects of socialism, capitalism and anarchism; I favour an
> anarchist moneyless gift economy model. I doubt if this problem and
> my solution are exactly what might be the go with other permaculturists!!!
This seems quite a long term aim rather than one based on present
realpolitik. But who dares predict the evolution of complex societies? You
never know.
> I also worry that they put people off sometimes with what amounts to a
> whole lot of proposed legislation that can seem like the state trying
> to control your every move. For example bans on four wheel drives on
> beaches and so on.
Yes, this too. Too many laws but not those we really need for the long term.
Too much interference in people's everyday life.
> Despite all this I still support the Greens; they are the only party
> that really acknowledges the depth of the environmental crisis and the
> drastic nature of what has to be done to solve it. I also think that
> voting for them within the preferential system (i,e giving second
> preferences to the ALP) is very effective in putting pressure on the
> major parties to do something. What worries me at the moment is the
> way their vote has remained at roughly the same level for more than a
> decade despite the recent and growing concern about global warming.
I spoke about this with a long-term member of the ALP connected to the
judiciary. He puts it down to the erratic nature of Green pronouncements and
policies.
> What is more likely is that most people are still too worried about
> their own
jobs or income to support any party which may seem to threaten that. Watch
this space.
And this is what the PPP will have to deal with.
>
> Terry
>>Grahame George of Earthcare Permaculture
<earthcarepc at virtual.net.au>wrote:
>>We seem to have two camps developing, those wanting revolutionary
>>change and those taking an evolutionary approach. As a biologist and
>>pragmatist I
believe that the latter approach is more likely to succeed in our
industrialised society.
Is this analogous to the way the German Green Party split betweeen the
'realos' - the pragmatists - and the 'politicos' - the ideological branch?
...Russ
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------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 14:00:56 +0950
From: "Ian Lillington" <livpermaculture at internode.on.net>
Subject: Re: [Pil-pc-oceania] political lobbying
To: permacultue discussion list
<pil-pc-oceania at lists.permacultureinternational.org>
Message-ID: <4689d100.130.222f.30401 at internode.on.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
yes! let's talk about political strategies by all means,
whcih is very different to seting up a political party.
after all, can anyone show me a party that has not (in
cecile's words) become full of "in fighting and self-seeking
rampant ambition"?
in the 6 weeks before the last Fed election, ACF employed me
in Adelaide to get groups of volunteers working on river
Murray isseus in 2 marginal seats; this was a valuable
experience and these were the 2 marginals that Labour
gained! (can never be sure how much we helped...)
but it was expensive in people- and cash-terms. all kinds
of lobbying is draining, but if there are people who have
the internal and cash resources to do it, fine.
also have to think about tactical voting. it is very
important to get voters to use their vote stratgically, even
if that means voting in a non-standard way; again this needs
people on the ground who like endlessly talking about these
things to the yet-to-be convinced,
i am happy to talk more about these expericnes
Ian Lillington
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 14:29:21 +0950
From: "Ian Lillington" <livpermaculture at internode.on.net>
Subject: Re: [Pil-pc-oceania] Permaculture People's politics
To: permacultue discussion list
<pil-pc-oceania at lists.permacultureinternational.org>
Message-ID: <4689d7a9.1cf.3f15.17335 at internode.on.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi Tamara
thanks for stimulating this discussion.
you write: There are some good discussions on the PRI forum
about the PPP. Please see
http://forums.permaculture.org.au/forum6.php&sid=d1dde81823102ac667ecf9bcad6
1...
I wonder if it is better to start a new list on this issue,
so that PRI and oceania subscribers are contributing to one
discussion?
Ian Lillington
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 16:17:00 +1000 (EST)
From: Martin Naylor <martinwnaylor at yahoo.com.au>
Subject: [Pil-pc-oceania] polticorascals
To: Pil-pc-oceania at lists.permacultureinternational.org
Message-ID: <483858.5428.qm at web37302.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
What is the reality of the planet
The reality is the real history of the past [excellent conspiracy book on
this is Nicholas Hagger The Syndicate- the top 200-300 money owners {owners
of oil and steel have started all the wars for the last 200-300 years for
example the opium wars in China and lets not forget Hitler and
Stalin -exactly where did they get oil weapons and drugs from, was it Bayer
who supplied the gas to kill the Jews?]and exactly where we are now
Currently the world is running out of oil and most likely will be out in
40 years max, according to Stern and U.N. reports on global warming we have
to reduce use by 80% in 10 years [greens disagree with this and say 60% in
50 years-and produce no scientific data to support statement]
We are also using up all ready scarce metals at totally unusable rates.
Another great piece of research on where we are most likely heading is Ron
Nielsens The Little Green Handbook.
So it appears we are going to burn and fight over the last remaining drops
of oil, [The Aust defence dept wants a billion dollars a year for the next
10 to 15 years for a war in Asia I'd chance a guess and say China is the
lucky recipient of death and mayhem] and turn ourselves into fortress
states, Americas and Canada will combine, Europe is in the process,[ Russia
is currently getting a bit upset with Bush's missile attack system in
Europe] and Asia will likely combine, this leave Australia in a very dodgy
position with all of it's material wealth, declaring a neutral state won't
help
How do we get out of this, forming a political party and getting the real
truth out is one method so individuals can respond in an intelligent way, as
there is no such thing as a world wide problem, it is the individual who
creates the problem, and it is the individual who has to change it's
relationships, that is it's relationships with his family, work associates,
politics, spirituality and earth.
This is where permaculture steps in and says here is a sustainable way to
live on the planet.
These are the primary issues, what policies are necessary will evolve, it
is no longer competition but co-operation, boy/girl will that upset a lot of
people.
Some policies to look at would be sacking say 80% of the workforce [they
can live in local communities] the other 20% support the centralised govt.
we will still need to research space and the earth and need major research
and construction facilities.There already exist trillions of dollars most of
it in a very few pockets it just needs a method of redistribution
Education could be mainly delivered by computer including virtual reality
and lets face it most education is memory and creativity there is not much
practical research. most exams are entirely memory.
stay cool the times they are a changing even for little johnny [as well as
a lot of other people] who thinks "that nothing is going to change our
economy"
We have the brains the will power to win this last competition between
each other, lets do it or wait another 100,000 years to get back here,
Stand hand in hand and we will stand on the threshold of a dream
Martin
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