[Pil-pc-oceania] Desalination
stevehart
stevehart at raglan.co.nz
Wed Jun 27 18:17:28 EST 2007
Desalination...IMO is not the problem it is how we understand and
respect what water in fact is. There are many varied viewpoints from
many different cultures and also those societies that lack
culture....which IMO is the majority. One example is from the Maori
of New Zealand who recognise that water is a living entity with
memory and that there are 57 different types.
The majority of water on the planet is in the oceans, therefore it is
obvious that this is where we are going when supplies on the land
fall short. There are some very good technologies appearing now some
of which were shown on Aust television"Towards Tonorrow" I think was
the name of the programme. The key is how we give the water live
force. The only and best system I have found is in Romania from a
scientist Dr.Marioara Godeanu. Her system can then be improved using
flow forms and other plants that exist in nature for this very
purpose. Just like Eucalyptus Camaldalensis which I used to eliminate
salt pans on a wheat farm in WA.
So its a great subject and all the work has been done......regards
Steve Hart
On 27/06/2007, at 7:42 PM, pil-pc-oceania-
request at lists.permacultureinternational.org wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
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> 1. Re: Subject: PERMACULTURE & RODENTS - kerry (len organicpc)
> 2. Permaculture and Desalination Plants (kerry dawborn)
> 3. Re: Subject: PERMACULTURE & RODENTS - kerry (kerry dawborn)
> 4. Re: Subject: PERMACULTURE & RODENTS - kerry (kerry dawborn)
> 5. RODENTS (P Ferguson)
> 6. Re: PERMACULTURE & RODENTS
> (Graeme George - Earthcare Permaculture)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 12:18:04 +1000
> From: "len organicpc" <gardenlen at hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Pil-pc-oceania] Subject: PERMACULTURE & RODENTS - kerry
> To: pil-pc-oceania at lists.permacultureinternational.org
> Message-ID: <BAY107-F1828842FE0DF9B7B092339B30A0 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
>
> kerry,
>
> yes kerry ther are no problems but if anyone has concerns after
> baiting then
> bury them somewhere out of the way, there is a very low dose inside
> the
> rats.
>
> don't understad the theory of moving the mulch around you need the
> mulch for
> various reason one being to retaining moisture more important than
> drastic
> action needed to control roedents, so even if that did work they would
> simply move to somewhere else and that could be in your gardens or
> worse
> your home, these things are a disease caryring pest no other word
> for them
> and rats paricularly can cause lots of damage in homes and buildings.
>
> the only management for rodents is zero population, and if the rats
> (most
> likely) are coming from elsewhere, like with us they where coming
> from the
> farm nest door nothing we could do about so we set up our line of
> baits
> nearest where they entered the property, and still one got into the
> house
> and in one night chewed the exposed telephone and computer cables
> for no
> other reason that they where there.
>
> they are responsible for many home and building fires caused when
> they short
> out electrical cables inside walls and roof spaces, they are worse
> than
> termites in lots of ways at least you can set up barriers for
> termites. they
> are opportunists they are there in spite of permaculture or whatever.
>
> the only natural way that has some bearing is create heaps of
> habitat for up
> to 10 kilometers around your home so the night rodents can breed
> and they
> will kill a few. these animals are nocturnal while you sleep they
> eat/destroy.
>
> With peace and brightest of blessings,
>
> len & bev
>
> --
> "Be Content With What You Have And
> May You Find Serenity and Tranquillity In
> A World That You May Not Understand."
>
> http://www.lensgarden.com.au
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Advertisement: Ministry of Sound's Sessions 4 has arrived. Have a
> listen!
> http://ninemsn.com.au/share/redir/adTrack.asp?
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>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 12:36:37 +1000
> From: kerry dawborn <kdawborn at bigpond.com>
> Subject: [Pil-pc-oceania] Permaculture and Desalination Plants
> To: pil-pc-oceania at lists.permacultureinternational.org
> Message-ID: <4681CD35.8080204 at bigpond.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Hi Everybody,
>
> I've just been looking through the oceania list archives to see if
> i can
> find anything on desalination, but haven't located anything. Does
> anyone
> know if there has been discussion on this on the list and where I can
> find it?
>
> Or, does anyone have any thoughts to share, or links to useful
> articles
> on desalination? As you'll probably know the Bracks Govt here in
> Victoria has just committed to build a plant as part of a response to
> our water crisis. There seems to be a fair bit of debate going on
> about
> it and I am keen to get a handle on what an appropriate permaculture
> position/response might be...
>
> Basically right now my own position is that we should be going for the
> simple, low-tech, decentralised approaches, such as water tanks for
> every available roof-space (I collect water off my chook pen, garden
> shed and the covered area near my back door (this keeps a 1,000 gallon
> tank perpetually full), am looking for ways to collect it off my
> glasshouse - I'd collect it off my dog's kennels if I wasn't so
> concerned about keeping them in more warm, protected spots... Will
> collect off house and garage as soon as I can manage to clear a
> space in
> my garden for a decent sized tank.... All my storage containers (small
> tank, 44 gallon drums with taps, whatever else I can find) are pretty
> much always full - my problem is not opportunities to catch water, but
> storing enough of it. Tanks on all roofs would surely be a better
> start
> than desalination, on the energy-use front, and other fronts.
>
> Can anyone refer me to useful articles and info on the benefits or
> disadvantages of desalination, and appropriate alternatives?
>
> cheers All,
>
> Kerry Dawborn
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 12:54:58 +1000
> From: kerry dawborn <kdawborn at bigpond.com>
> Subject: Re: [Pil-pc-oceania] Subject: PERMACULTURE & RODENTS - kerry
> To: permacultue discussion list
> <pil-pc-oceania at lists.permacultureinternational.org>
> Message-ID: <4681D182.2090305 at bigpond.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Thanks for your reply Len. I still have concerns about the chemicals
> though. Part of my concern is not so much about effects on soil as
> about
> effects on other animals. When I worked on a rural property in NSW
> as a
> young adult, we did a big poison of rabbits using 1080, and managed to
> (I believe) cause the disappearance of around 6 pairs of wedge-tailed
> eagles after the poisoning, along with two or three domestic dogs.
> This
> even though we went around and collected every carcass we could find.
>
> I have a bit of a rat problem around my chook pen at the moment
> which I
> am reluctant to use poison for, because I have a small dog - a jack
> russell - whose mission in life is to catch rats. She tries hard but I
> don't think manages that well as here in suburbia there is too much
> cover for them - neighbours garden sheds etc - and my own. I am
> concerned that if I poison, she will find dying rats and kill them,
> which could be good for them being quicker, but I don't know if she or
> my other dog would try and eat them (he seems happy to try to eat
> pretty
> much anything), which would obviously be a big problem.
>
> I have also poisoned in the past and gone out to find 10 or more
> rats in
> various stages of dying, humanely knocked them off but been devastated
> to have caused that suffering to another being. It's not their fault
> they are rats... Guess cats can be pretty cruel too - have thought of
> getting one but am concerned about wildlife.
>
> I do put poison in the roof of my house as I am very concerned
> about my
> wiring, but currently am trying the kind of thing Julie Firth has
> talked
> about for outside - removing protection and the 'highways' they travel
> on, and increasing access for my dog. I am also mindful of not leaving
> chook food out at night. One option I plan to try for my fruit trees (
> they love to eat my oranges out, leaving a hollow skin), is to cut
> back
> the branches from near fences etc, and try a kind of 'collar' for the
> trunk, like the ones sometimes used to deter possums (something they
> can't get a grip on to climb). Trouble, is they are pretty good
> jumpers... Still, I will try to exhaust all these kinds of options
> before increasing my use of poison...
>
> cheers,
>
> Kerry
>
> len organicpc wrote:
>> kerry,
>>
>> yes kerry ther are no problems but if anyone has concerns after
>> baiting then
>> bury them somewhere out of the way, there is a very low dose
>> inside the
>> rats.
>>
>> don't understad the theory of moving the mulch around you need the
>> mulch for
>> various reason one being to retaining moisture more important than
>> drastic
>> action needed to control roedents, so even if that did work they
>> would
>> simply move to somewhere else and that could be in your gardens or
>> worse
>> your home, these things are a disease caryring pest no other word
>> for them
>> and rats paricularly can cause lots of damage in homes and buildings.
>>
>> the only management for rodents is zero population, and if the
>> rats (most
>> likely) are coming from elsewhere, like with us they where coming
>> from the
>> farm nest door nothing we could do about so we set up our line of
>> baits
>> nearest where they entered the property, and still one got into
>> the house
>> and in one night chewed the exposed telephone and computer cables
>> for no
>> other reason that they where there.
>>
>> they are responsible for many home and building fires caused when
>> they short
>> out electrical cables inside walls and roof spaces, they are worse
>> than
>> termites in lots of ways at least you can set up barriers for
>> termites. they
>> are opportunists they are there in spite of permaculture or whatever.
>>
>> the only natural way that has some bearing is create heaps of
>> habitat for up
>> to 10 kilometers around your home so the night rodents can breed
>> and they
>> will kill a few. these animals are nocturnal while you sleep they
>> eat/destroy.
>>
>> With peace and brightest of blessings,
>>
>> len & bev
>>
>> --
>> "Be Content With What You Have And
>> May You Find Serenity and Tranquillity In
>> A World That You May Not Understand."
>>
>> http://www.lensgarden.com.au
>>
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> Advertisement: Ministry of Sound's Sessions 4 has arrived. Have a
>> listen!
>> http://ninemsn.com.au/share/redir/adTrack.asp?
>> mode=click&clientID=788&referral=hotmailtagline&URL=http://
>> music.ninemsn.com.au/playlist.aspx?
>> sectionid=2465§ionname=artistfeature&subsectionid=9961&subsection
>> name=sessions4&categoryid=2602
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Pil-pc-oceania mailing list
>> Pil-pc-oceania at lists.permacultureinternational.org
>> http://jasper.cmsarchitects.com/mailman/listinfo/pil-pc-oceania
>>
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 12:57:40 +1000
> From: kerry dawborn <kdawborn at bigpond.com>
> Subject: Re: [Pil-pc-oceania] Subject: PERMACULTURE & RODENTS - kerry
> To: permacultue discussion list
> <pil-pc-oceania at lists.permacultureinternational.org>
> Message-ID: <4681D224.4010902 at bigpond.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> re the accidental poisoning of eagles and domestic dogs mentioned
> below,
> I'd like to add that this was not my property - I worked for a big
> thoroughbred horse breeder - and that the experience scarred me for
> life...
>
> Kerry
>
> kerry dawborn wrote:
>> Thanks for your reply Len. I still have concerns about the chemicals
>> though. Part of my concern is not so much about effects on soil as
>> about
>> effects on other animals. When I worked on a rural property in NSW
>> as a
>> young adult, we did a big poison of rabbits using 1080, and
>> managed to
>> (I believe) cause the disappearance of around 6 pairs of wedge-tailed
>> eagles after the poisoning, along with two or three domestic dogs.
>> This
>> even though we went around and collected every carcass we could find.
>>
>> I have a bit of a rat problem around my chook pen at the moment
>> which I
>> am reluctant to use poison for, because I have a small dog - a jack
>> russell - whose mission in life is to catch rats. She tries hard
>> but I
>> don't think manages that well as here in suburbia there is too much
>> cover for them - neighbours garden sheds etc - and my own. I am
>> concerned that if I poison, she will find dying rats and kill them,
>> which could be good for them being quicker, but I don't know if
>> she or
>> my other dog would try and eat them (he seems happy to try to eat
>> pretty
>> much anything), which would obviously be a big problem.
>>
>> I have also poisoned in the past and gone out to find 10 or more
>> rats in
>> various stages of dying, humanely knocked them off but been
>> devastated
>> to have caused that suffering to another being. It's not their fault
>> they are rats... Guess cats can be pretty cruel too - have thought of
>> getting one but am concerned about wildlife.
>>
>> I do put poison in the roof of my house as I am very concerned
>> about my
>> wiring, but currently am trying the kind of thing Julie Firth has
>> talked
>> about for outside - removing protection and the 'highways' they
>> travel
>> on, and increasing access for my dog. I am also mindful of not
>> leaving
>> chook food out at night. One option I plan to try for my fruit
>> trees (
>> they love to eat my oranges out, leaving a hollow skin), is to cut
>> back
>> the branches from near fences etc, and try a kind of 'collar' for the
>> trunk, like the ones sometimes used to deter possums (something they
>> can't get a grip on to climb). Trouble, is they are pretty good
>> jumpers... Still, I will try to exhaust all these kinds of options
>> before increasing my use of poison...
>>
>> cheers,
>>
>> Kerry
>>
>> len organicpc wrote:
>>
>>> kerry,
>>>
>>> yes kerry ther are no problems but if anyone has concerns after
>>> baiting then
>>> bury them somewhere out of the way, there is a very low dose
>>> inside the
>>> rats.
>>>
>>> don't understad the theory of moving the mulch around you need
>>> the mulch for
>>> various reason one being to retaining moisture more important
>>> than drastic
>>> action needed to control roedents, so even if that did work they
>>> would
>>> simply move to somewhere else and that could be in your gardens
>>> or worse
>>> your home, these things are a disease caryring pest no other word
>>> for them
>>> and rats paricularly can cause lots of damage in homes and
>>> buildings.
>>>
>>> the only management for rodents is zero population, and if the
>>> rats (most
>>> likely) are coming from elsewhere, like with us they where coming
>>> from the
>>> farm nest door nothing we could do about so we set up our line of
>>> baits
>>> nearest where they entered the property, and still one got into
>>> the house
>>> and in one night chewed the exposed telephone and computer cables
>>> for no
>>> other reason that they where there.
>>>
>>> they are responsible for many home and building fires caused when
>>> they short
>>> out electrical cables inside walls and roof spaces, they are
>>> worse than
>>> termites in lots of ways at least you can set up barriers for
>>> termites. they
>>> are opportunists they are there in spite of permaculture or
>>> whatever.
>>>
>>> the only natural way that has some bearing is create heaps of
>>> habitat for up
>>> to 10 kilometers around your home so the night rodents can breed
>>> and they
>>> will kill a few. these animals are nocturnal while you sleep they
>>> eat/destroy.
>>>
>>> With peace and brightest of blessings,
>>>
>>> len & bev
>>>
>>> --
>>> "Be Content With What You Have And
>>> May You Find Serenity and Tranquillity In
>>> A World That You May Not Understand."
>>>
>>> http://www.lensgarden.com.au
>>>
>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>> Advertisement: Ministry of Sound's Sessions 4 has arrived. Have a
>>> listen!
>>> http://ninemsn.com.au/share/redir/adTrack.asp?
>>> mode=click&clientID=788&referral=hotmailtagline&URL=http://
>>> music.ninemsn.com.au/playlist.aspx?
>>> sectionid=2465§ionname=artistfeature&subsectionid=9961&subsectio
>>> nname=sessions4&categoryid=2602
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Pil-pc-oceania mailing list
>>> Pil-pc-oceania at lists.permacultureinternational.org
>>> http://jasper.cmsarchitects.com/mailman/listinfo/pil-pc-oceania
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Pil-pc-oceania mailing list
>> Pil-pc-oceania at lists.permacultureinternational.org
>> http://jasper.cmsarchitects.com/mailman/listinfo/pil-pc-oceania
>>
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 16:09:58 +1000
> From: "P Ferguson" <pennyfer at bigpond.net.au>
> Subject: [Pil-pc-oceania] RODENTS
> To: <pil-pc-oceania at lists.permacultureinternational.org>
> Message-ID: <000e01c7b881$ca836850$0100000a at home9agsgpio82>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> How do you know the 'rodents' are rats and/or mice?
> They could be antechinus which is about as big as a mouse. Brave
> little fellows which eat insects and other small prey. The males
> fight to the death in the mating season.
>
> then there is the native Australian bush rat.
>
> If the imported variety, how did they get there? I don't advocate
> cats as a commodity. They are expert killers and might prefer
> everything else, including native birds.
>
> Those little traps are available from Mascot Wire Works in Sydney,
> but other manufacturers must make them too.
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 17:43:06 +1000
> From: Graeme George - Earthcare Permaculture
> <earthcarepc at virtual.net.au>
> Subject: Re: [Pil-pc-oceania] PERMACULTURE & RODENTS
> To: permacultue discussion list
> <pil-pc-oceania at lists.permacultureinternational.org>
> Message-ID: <4682150A.2010103 at virtual.net.au>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Colleagues
>
> As I live in the same bioregion as Laurence, Yarra Valley, and am
> similarly surrounded by bush (private property in my case, a bit
> wetter
> and State Forest in Laurence's case) my experience is probably fairly
> relevant. Laurence did copy me his posting, but I haven't had a chance
> to respond.
>
> The culprits are most likely native Bush Rats and/or Swamp Rats, but
> introduced Black Rats and House Mice could have found their way to the
> property as well. If they're living in the mulch, they're most likely
> House Mice, I often uncover nests of grass and leaves when forking
> over
> garden beds and they are attracted to the warmth (and food) of compost
> heaps also. Agile and Dusky Antechinus would both be present at
> Laurence's place, but, as they are insectivorous and not vegetarian,
> they won't be the ones responsible for eating nuts and pumpkin
> seeds in
> the garden, though they are attracted to sweet and soft foods in the
> house (ripe fruit, etc). They would be very vulnerable to predation by
> cats in the garden.
>
> Swamp Rats are my major concern. They love to make their burrows and
> runways through the many patches of weedy "fallow" that I usually have
> in my garden. My main control method is to discourage them, by keeping
> the grassy weeds clear around vulnerable crops such as sweet corn and
> root crops, blocking their runways between their nests and my crops
> and
> digging up the entrances to their burrows when I find them. They are
> very fond of my Gilfeather Swedes, which I grow as a seed crop. In
> addition to the above methods I sprinkle dry wood ash around the
> exposed
> parts of the swedes when I see nibble marks appearing. They also
> burrow
> underground to get at my Taro tubers and the tap roots of my Parsley
> bushes so I have to keep an eye on those and wreck their runways and
> burrows when I find them.
>
> When I first started my large vegie patch I had a problem with rats
> (not
> sure which ones) eating my corn cobs. What proved successful on those
> occasions was to put out dishes of parrot seed mix as a decoy. In more
> recent years this hasn't been a problem and I have a feeling I have
> achieved some sort of "balance" that has been mentioned by others. I
> have Copperhead and Tiger Snakes about, though seldom see them these
> days. I have seen Copperheads going down rat burrows, so encourage
> them
> by leaving lots of cover around (corrugated iron sheets, etc - also
> great for Bluetongues).
>
> I get a lot of House Mice and the occasional Black Rat in the house. I
> live trap the mice and then dispatch them, but usually have to put
> bait
> out for the rats. If I suspect the house invaders are native Bush
> Rats I
> use cage traps and take them a long way away for release. I had an
> antechinus in the bath tub the other day - they get picked up in a
> towel
> and get put outside.
>
> I am about to plant out some macadamias. I'd be inclined to try the
> metal collar approach on those but haven't any direct experience to
> relate as yet.
>
> Julie I'd be interested to know what species are a problem in your
> part
> of the world.
>
> Regards all
>
> Graeme
> Healesville, Vic.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Pil-pc-oceania at lists.permacultureinternational.org
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