[Pil-pc-oceania] PC a friend to plants?

[Terry Frewin]

well said Deb!
Terry

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Deb Guildner" <bocor at bigbutton.com.au>
To: "permacultue discussion list" 
<pil-pc-oceania at lists.permacultureinternational.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 9:26 AM
Subject: [Pil-pc-oceania] PC a friend to plants?


>I haven't seen or heard Tim Low, but I have a couple of his excellent bush
> food books.  I reiterate my position, ie that I would rather support
> ecosystems which contain native bush foods and rare plants, than an
> uncontrolled weedscape.  Many bushfoods plants contain very high levels of
> antioxidants, and their potential to plant science is only just now being
> fully understood. On the Australian continent, we are custodian to some of
> the oldest plants in the world.  [Contrast most suburban gardens (yawn),
> which contain very little of any real value,serving as mere ornamental 
> 'eye
> candy', and increasingly, comprise patented mass-produced ornamental
> horticulture cultivars, recommended by hyper-aesthetic landscape 
> designers.
> La DE da, "how beastly the bourgeoius is!".]
>
> As one who has spent years in the front lines of natural systems weed
> control, whilst simultaneously being an anti-toxic chemicals campaigner, I
> find some of these comments a tad simplistic. I am sure you would not 
> argue
> a case for using chemicals to control weeds across the board, but the
> reality is that many meagre weed control budgets are mainly spent on just
> that. The whole budget for chemical control of weeds is huge, and it feeds
> horrid, nasty corporations who are absolutely against everything
> permaculture stands for.  Ask the anti-GE lobby.
>
> We have extraordinarily precious plant resources in this country (we have
> already wiped out many), and one cannot simply change whole plant 
> ecologies
> overnight, as there are complex interactive webs of life to consider. It
> isnt just about species diversity, its also the GENETIC diversity within
> single species which is quite astounding.  You will find many weed species
> populations have expanded from a few individuals which have been imported,
> and do not contain much in the way of genetic variation: a single ( or a
> few) genotype(s) multiplied and gone forth..
>
> In relation to fire, yes, it has been a land management tool in Australia
> for thousands of years, and remains so.  In fact, if you have a look at 
> the
> status of threatened plants in Australia, you will find that approx. 40+%
> are endangered because they are adapted to fire to regenerate, and aren't
> getting enough fire, and another 40+% are failing to regenerate because 
> they
> are getting too much fire. Fire is a big factor in the management of
> Australian landscapes, but getting the balance right has not been well
> understood by Europeans.  But we are learning.  Incidentally, there is 
> much
> more to forests in Australia than eucalypts.  There are whole 
> understoreys.
> One of the animals which has genetically altered very little over a long
> time is the wombat....perhaps because it had the nouse to dig a nice deep
> multi-room burrow, and then jump in it. [If only we Europeans had done the
> same, perhaps we would not be so badly affected by wildfire, an event made
> much more common since our arrival.]
>
> To quote Bill Mollison:
> "Wheat is the worst weed in Australia".
>
> I know of no 'created landscape' (or waterscape if you prefer) which has
> been scientifically proven to be as productive as a natural system. And I
> have a lot of respect for the science of ecology.  Permaculture whilst 
> being
> an extremely  useful tool for humans, is not ecological science.  It takes
> at least 120 years to begin create a Permaculture (or other ecologically
> based system), and one would have to say the jury is still out on whether 
> it
> can be achieved, as PC has not yet been around long enough to be proven. 
> [As
> an aside, I see there is an unresolved dispute on the PC entry on 
> Wikipedia
> about whther one basic PC sytems design is transposable across all climate
> zones. (I cannot comment as I do not know anything of the relative merits 
> of
> these arguments).]
>
> Some weeds are potentially useful, but many are not.
> The list of colonial invaders begins with us. And the list is very long.
> Nurseries are still peddling species which have long since been listed on
> noxious weeds lists across the nation. But does anybody care?  It seems 
> not,
> or not enough.
>
> Weeds are simply feeding an already massive demand for synthetic chemical
> herbicides.  I would suggest that more people get out there and work as
> volunteers doing no-or-minimal chemical bush regeneration (including in
> non-eucalypt ecosystems), and then come back and say: "so what" about 
> weeds.
> I'll be waiting.
>
> Plants arent simply another tool: they are our friends, and the bedrock on
> which all life depends. Life on earth: it isnt just about US.
>
> Deb
> PS: Sorry if you've had your whiskers singed.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Steve Hart" <stevehart at raglan.co.nz>
> To: <pil-pc-oceania at lists.permacultureinternational.org>
> Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 1:11 AM
> Subject: [Pil-pc-oceania] Tom Low's panic station and weeds
>
>
>> Weeds from one perspective are "Plants one has not yet found the true
>> virtue of" or another is "The first invader to prepare ground for the
>> pioneers"....I have been called a weed a few times. Have we found a
>> true use for the colonial invaders of Australia yet ?  The other
>> question one must ask the Tim Lows of this world is what time frame
>> is the context we are talking of. If dramatic climate is to roll over
>> us like we are all expecting I reckon it'll probably be a damned good
>> thing for Australia.....we might evolve into a new biodiversity and
>> rid ourselves of bush fires and that dreaded "tinder box ecology"
>> which IMO is slowly but surely destroying the tilth of the
>> continent. .....imagine...... eucalypts confined to botanical
>> gardens .....don't get too precious guys look at the big
>> picture. ....and pests......don't get me started on that
>> issue.......when you run out of possums I know where we can get a few
>> ship loads from........I interviewed Tim on live radio a few years
>> ago and he proved to be very anti Permaculture.....think PC was pro
>> weeds......IMO he was right......but he still couldn't recognise the
>> great value that PC does offer..........Steve Hart
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