[Pil-pc-oceania] GM may spread to weeds? Great!

Sun Mar 9 20:33:19 EST 2008

If you watch "The Extras" section of the documentary "A Crude Awakening"
there is an interview with Dr. David L. Goodstein, a Professor of Physics &
applied physics.

The cheeky one's can find it here:  http://www.mininova.org/tor/691742

He explains the bleak prospects for alternative sources of energy extremely
well.

The Oil Drum link below comprehensively covers our current predicament:
http://www.theoildrum.com/node/3623

This is why my assumptions are strong.

Russ's comment: "One thing history teaches us is never to assume that the
conditions of the
present will be projected into the future."

This would refer more to the International Energy Agency's assumption of
exponential growth in world oil production (*as has been the reality up
until now*). Hence the term "Peak Oil". It is the point at which the world
(in aggregate) will produce the most oil it EVER will. EVER.

My assumption is not of present conditions being projected into the future.
I am assuming terminal decline or "Energy Descent".

Russ's comment: "Possibly true... Good things might evolve. But will they be
outweighed by
the bad things?"

Good point. The brutal reality is that not everyone is gonna make the
life-boat. But I believe the coming crisis & hardships will force us to grow
up & take responsibility for our own provision. For we cannot expect
Leadership from our Governments. They are incompetent & corrupted by
Corporate money. This is why the Permaculture revolution is starting at the
grass roots level. People are thinking for themselves & taking control of
their own lives again.

Permaculture Principle: "Use Small & Slow Solutions"  -  don't expect to get
Solar Hot Water, Solar Electricity, rain water storage, grey-water systems
or an entire food-garden all at once! Even we are doing it little by little!
Slow & steady is the better way, anyway  *: )*   You need to "Observe &
Interact" (another Permaculture Principle!)

Regarding Politics, I still believe that the FORCED de-centralisation of
energy caused by Post Peak Oil means that Governments "reach", "influence" &
control is enormously reduced (economy is contracting thus less tax revenue
PLUS hyper-inflation caused by Post Peak Oil prices means Government cannot
afford to maintain the roads, nor the electricity grid. This is very true
when you understand macro-economic principles).

So 10 years from now, it will be cheaper to have Origin Sliver Cell
Photovoltaic panels on your roof (sunny weather permitting) than to buy from
the grid:
http://www.originenergy.com.au/environment/files/factsheet_sliver.pdf

& no, I don't work for Origin  *: )*

To understand the "de-centralisation of energy" concept, -think of
Globalisation in reverse. It's simply not possible once oil supply goes into
terminal decline.

r0tiNeK

On Sun, Mar 9, 2008 at 7:42 PM, RussGrayson <info at pacific-edge.info> wrote:

> Comments below...
>
> On 8/3/08 9:31 PM, "Ronnie Coleman" <rotinek at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > So as the oil price climbs ever higher, centralised systems such as "the
> > Monsanto way" become too expensive. *It is simply too dependent on oil &
> > they don't have any other way.
>
> This makes the big assumption that no other source of energy will become
> available. This is quite possible, perhaps likely, but it remains an
> assumption.
>
> One thing history teaches us is never to assume that the conditions of the
> present will be projected into the future. I'm not saying that an
> alternative energy source will be developed... but we cannot make the
> assumpotion that it will not... We can always only say 'if a new source is
> not found... '. We do not know the future.
>
> > So there will be good things that arise from Post Peak Oil, -but you
> must
> > work hard NOW to establish yourself & Family/Community to be more
> > self-sufficient and independent (Solar Hot Water system, Solar
> Electricity
> > of some capacity, rain-water storage, grey water systems, Permaculture).
>
> Possibly true... Good things might evolve. But will they be outweighed by
> the bad things? Peak oil, given the global economy's oil dependency, could
> well plunge the planet into global economic depression. That means that,
> if
> you are paying a mortgage for the house you place all these appliances
> mentioned above on, you might find yourself with no income and no house.
>
> Consider the seventeenth century piece by John Donne that starts... "No
> man
> is an island entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a
> part
> of the main...".
>
> What donne is saying is that no one is self-sufficient; everyone relies on
> others. What happens to the world happens in some form in your garden, in
> your house, in your workplace, in your life. If there is global
> depression,
> then that happens to you, too. I find difficulty in focusing just on
> potential (but maybe mythical) positives coming from global crises like
> peak
> oil, as millions of unemployed, homeless and possibly malnourished people
> suffer. How will isolated permacultures fare in this sort of world?
>
> The technologies Ronnie mentions are all positive things, of course, and
> should be installed with the assistance of government financial and moral
> incentives.
>
> I fine Ronnie's notion of community response a good one. Maybe we can
> repurpose the Cold War idea of 'collective security' to our own ends in
> this
> regard and promote community response as that most relevant to the worst
> case scenario of peak oil - global financial meltdown. I recall
> discussions
> I had with permaculture eduator, Rosemany Morrow, in this regard. We came
> up
> with the term 'resilient communities' to encapsulate what we meant.
>
> > Hardships are coming, -but good things will also come of it. There is
> > emerging a time for We The People to become more empowered & less
> enslaved.
> > But we must strive for our freedom..
>
> Now the discussion becomes political, for to become "more empowered and
> less
> enslaved" implies the development of a type of participatory, as opposed
> to
> a representative, form of democracy. I see no prospect of any other type
> of
> politics taking us along this path. Let's consider this...
>
> - Communism, despite the possible intentions of its early thinkers, failed
> and became an authoritarian, oppressive system that people took the
> opportunity to throw off when that presented itself.
>
> - Socialism was a more viable form of political organisaton because it
> included all sorts of arrangements, from the social democracy of Western
> nations to one party states that, well, maybe weren't quite so democratic
> (how can you have democracy and not choose your own government?). A
> so-called 'communist' superpower, in reality an opprssive, paranoid and
> authoritarian state, the now-departed Soviet Union, used the Red Army's
> tanks and conscript troops to suppress the 'socialism with a human face',
> the more democratic socialism of Checkoslovakia's Alexander Dubceck's
> government during the 'Pragie Spring' of 1968. As some observers say, that
> was the real beginning of the breakup of the Soviet Union.
>
> -Fascism... Italy, Spain and Germany gave this one a run but all it did
> was
> kill a lot of people, destroy a lot of cities and wreck those countries.
>
> - Anarchism... Briefly tried in Barcelona during the Spanish Civil War but
> crushed by Franco's fascists assisted indirectly by the Soviets.
> Anarchists
> have seemed to expend their energies quarreling about the purity of their
> political strains rather than doing much constructive.
>
> - Democracy... There are many varieties of this, stemming from the
> representive type we in this country are familiar with, the direct type
> that
> devolves political decision making to a more grassroots level and the
> theoretical socialist type. Imperfect it might be, but perhaps we can
> evolve
> a humane model of this, one that meets Ronnie's " more empowered & less
> enslaved" criteria.
>
> Just a few thoughts.
>
> ...Russ Grayson
>
>
> > Peace & Love
> >
> > r0tiNeK
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Mar 8, 2008 at 10:27 AM, Deb Guildner <bocor at bigbutton.com.au>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> 1. You're an optimist......
> >>
> >> 2. Or, as the Walt Disney show used to say:
> >> "...and then there's Fantasyland, the happiest kingdom of them
> >> all........."
> >> (Sigh)
> >>
> >> 3. News item, World News, sometime in the year 2009:
> >> "Monsanto, DuPont and Bayer today decided to cease all chemical
> production
> >> and genetically modified plant production, and place all non-GM seeds
> in
> >> their ownership in the public domain to be freely shared by the
> denisens
> >> of
> >> planet Earth." (Nice!)
> >>
> >> Wild GM canola has already escaped (and most likely crossed with wild
> weed
> >> relatives) to roadsides in the Adelaide Hills near where some trial
> crops
> >> were grown several years ago, (according to a biological farmer and
> >> anti-GM
> >> campaigner who lived in the area). The same has probably happened
> >> elsewhere....what's to prevent it???
> >>
> >> Deb
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Dr Bob Rich" <bobrich at bobswriting.com>
> >> To: <pil-pc-oceania at lists.permacultureinternational.org>
> >> Sent: Friday, March 07, 2008 4:25 PM
> >> Subject: [Pil-pc-oceania] GM may spread to weeds? Great!
> >>
> >>
> >>> I've had a thought. So herbicide resistance may cross over into weeds.
> >>> That
> >>> could have a number of very beneficial effects:
> >>>    1. Instead of relying on Roundup, farmers will need to rely on sane
> >>> farming practices.
> >>>    2. The spread of poisons will reduce as a result.
> >>>    3. Farmers losing income will be in the same kind of position as
> >>> asbestositis sufferers -- and Monsanto will be in the same kind of
> >>> position
> >>> as James Hardy.
> >>> Bring it on!
> >>> :)
> >>> Bob
> >>> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> Dr Bob Rich
> >>> http://bobswriting.com
> >>> http://mudsmith.net
> >>> http://anxietyanddepression-help.com
> >>> Commit random acts of kindness
> >>> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
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> >>> Pil-pc-oceania at lists.permacultureinternational.org
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> >>>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
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