[Pil-pc-oceania] Looking for George Chan
Steve Hart
Steve.Hart at hyderconsulting.com
Sun Mar 9 23:33:00 EST 2008
Looking for George Chan....does anyone have an up to date contact for
George Chan ...Steve Hart
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: GM may spread to weeds? Great! (Ronnie Coleman)
2. Re: taking Ronnies comments further (Ronnie Coleman)
3. Re: GM may spread to weeds? Great! (RussGrayson)
4. Re: GM may spread to weeds? Great! (Ronnie Coleman)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2008 19:20:29 +1100
From: "Ronnie Coleman" <rotinek at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Pil-pc-oceania] GM may spread to weeds? Great!
To: "permacultue discussion list"
<pil-pc-oceania at lists.permacultureinternational.org>
Message-ID:
<8f7856530803090020q291a3a2bw31728e5c8671d5 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi Graeme,
I was trying to be succinct in my email & so I didn't go into great
depth
re: Permaculture but I do understand it. I actually did a PDC that was
run by David Holmgren November 2007 & had the priviledge of speaking
with him & visiting his farm.
I felt my examples of Solar Hot Water, Solar Electricity, rain water
storage & grey water systems reflected the Permaculture Principles of:
- Catch & Store Energy
- Use & Value renewable resources
- Produce no waste
Kind Regards,
r0tiNeK
On Sun, Mar 9, 2008 at 9:13 AM, Graeme George
<earthcarepc at virtual.net.au>
wrote:
>
> On 08/03/2008, at 9:31 PM, Ronnie Coleman wrote:
>
> So there will be good things that arise from Post Peak Oil, -but you
> must work hard NOW to establish yourself & Family/Community to be more
> self-sufficient and independent (Solar Hot Water system, Solar
> Electricity of some capacity, rain-water storage, grey water systems,
Permaculture).
>
> >
> >
> Ronnie - I am surprised to see a statement like the above on a
> permaculture discussion listserv. All of the elements you list are a
> part of a good permaculture design. Permaculture isn't something
> separate that you add on at the end - it's the design process by which
> you put all these things together to develop a sustainable system. If
> by "permaculture" you mean a food garden, then please call it a food
> garden and helps us all overcome the all-too-common misconception that
> permaculture is only about gardening. To get a 21st century view of
> Permaculture I suggest you have a look at David Holmgren's
> *Permaculture Principles and Pathways Beyond
> Sustainability.*
>
> Graeme George
> *Earthcare Permaculture*
> 35 Deering Ave, Healesville, Vic, 3777
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pil-pc-oceania mailing list
> Pil-pc-oceania at lists.permacultureinternational.org
> http://jasper.cmsarchitects.com/mailman/listinfo/pil-pc-oceania
>
>
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Message: 2
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2008 20:13:05 +1100
From: "Ronnie Coleman" <rotinek at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Pil-pc-oceania] taking Ronnies comments further
To: mossmans at internode.on.net
Cc: permacultue discussion list
<pil-pc-oceania at lists.permacultureinternational.org>
Message-ID:
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
Hi Sue,
I agree with your email. There is emerging a time for Permaculture to
gain greater recognition and to be an example & resource for education
regarding sustainable living. But we need to come together, not be
squabbling between each other. & yes this process requires diplomacy and
will also entail politics. It's in-escapable when there's so many people
with different perspectives. So collectively we need to come to a few
important concepts that we all agree on. Stick to the basics (where
Permaculture got it's roots).
This is not for me to decide, -but for Permaculture as a whole.
r0tiNeK
On Sun, Mar 9, 2008 at 11:18 AM, mossmans <mossmans at internode.on.net>
wrote:
> In defence of Ronnie, I think they are suggesting that some of these
> items are for our communities, eg Solar electricity that do cost
> money, and I don't think they are necessarily suggesting this for
> those who are permaculturists, but lets face it?..
>
>
>
> How many people practicing and espousing permaculture have everything
> ?how many even can eat from their own gardens (thank God the
> supermarket is a close backup!!) it is not cheap to do all those
> things and they are usually part of a progressing plan within a
> household. You still have other financial and time burdens that must
> be met, so you do this small and add to it as you can.
>
>
>
> And ok, so we P people may have many of the elements, but what about
> the rest of the population??
>
>
>
> In todays (March 9) Sunday Telegraph, with the heading "One in five
> girls are fat" it goes on to say, "cash strapped parents are denying
> their children vegetables, with almost one in three saying they simply
> cannot afford fresh produce due to lack of time and cost of sports
etc".
>
> Probably paying off a McMansion mortgage and a tiny backyard makes it
> difficult to grow a lot of food. But not impossible.
>
>
>
> In a small 6 metre x 4 metre no dig garden patch we workshopped at
> Illabunda EcoVillage in Winston Hills Sydney, the produce has been
> incredible from that plot, as long as it is quickly replanted
(succession).
>
>
>
> So how are we Permaculture practitioners developing a plan to help
> support our populations, and is this something we only do locally if
> there happens to be a strong group, or are we doing this as a
> organized group eg like ACF, with a game plan to make a difference on
a national level.
>
>
>
> This does kind of take me to the fact that I think we need to get our
> act together if we don't want to fade into insignificance, while
> councils and other organizations impact thinking. So no matter how
> our 21st century permaculture thinking may direct us as individuals we
> have no impact at any other level. So it is time we develop into the
> organization that we can be - to make a change so that in the future
> we can demand a place on 2020 discussions about where our nation goes,
> rather than just as individuals applying and hoping to be chosen for
> this. I suppose it is interesting that an actress has more clout than
> some of the esteemed people in permaculture. So lets stop hiding
light under a bushel and get out there.
>
>
>
> Cant wait for the APC9, lets hope the discussion on the last two days
> will lead us down an active and unified organizational level.
>
>
>
> Sue Mossman
>
> Progressing on the pathway
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pil-pc-oceania mailing list
> Pil-pc-oceania at lists.permacultureinternational.org
> http://jasper.cmsarchitects.com/mailman/listinfo/pil-pc-oceania
>
>
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Message: 3
Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2008 19:42:14 +1100
From: RussGrayson <info at pacific-edge.info>
Subject: Re: [Pil-pc-oceania] GM may spread to weeds? Great!
To: pil <pil-pc-oceania at lists.permacultureinternational.org>
Message-ID: <C3F9EE16.87CF%info at pacific-edge.info>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Comments below...
On 8/3/08 9:31 PM, "Ronnie Coleman" <rotinek at gmail.com> wrote:
> So as the oil price climbs ever higher, centralised systems such as
> "the Monsanto way" become too expensive. *It is simply too dependent
> on oil & they don't have any other way.
This makes the big assumption that no other source of energy will become
available. This is quite possible, perhaps likely, but it remains an
assumption.
One thing history teaches us is never to assume that the conditions of
the present will be projected into the future. I'm not saying that an
alternative energy source will be developed... but we cannot make the
assumpotion that it will not... We can always only say 'if a new source
is not found... '. We do not know the future.
> So there will be good things that arise from Post Peak Oil, -but you
> must work hard NOW to establish yourself & Family/Community to be more
> self-sufficient and independent (Solar Hot Water system, Solar
> Electricity of some capacity, rain-water storage, grey water systems,
Permaculture).
Possibly true... Good things might evolve. But will they be outweighed
by the bad things? Peak oil, given the global economy's oil dependency,
could well plunge the planet into global economic depression. That means
that, if you are paying a mortgage for the house you place all these
appliances mentioned above on, you might find yourself with no income
and no house.
Consider the seventeenth century piece by John Donne that starts... "No
man is an island entire of itself; every man is a piece of the
continent, a part of the main...".
What donne is saying is that no one is self-sufficient; everyone relies
on others. What happens to the world happens in some form in your
garden, in your house, in your workplace, in your life. If there is
global depression, then that happens to you, too. I find difficulty in
focusing just on potential (but maybe mythical) positives coming from
global crises like peak oil, as millions of unemployed, homeless and
possibly malnourished people suffer. How will isolated permacultures
fare in this sort of world?
The technologies Ronnie mentions are all positive things, of course, and
should be installed with the assistance of government financial and
moral incentives.
I fine Ronnie's notion of community response a good one. Maybe we can
repurpose the Cold War idea of 'collective security' to our own ends in
this regard and promote community response as that most relevant to the
worst case scenario of peak oil - global financial meltdown. I recall
discussions I had with permaculture eduator, Rosemany Morrow, in this
regard. We came up with the term 'resilient communities' to encapsulate
what we meant.
> Hardships are coming, -but good things will also come of it. There is
> emerging a time for We The People to become more empowered & less
enslaved.
> But we must strive for our freedom..
Now the discussion becomes political, for to become "more empowered and
less enslaved" implies the development of a type of participatory, as
opposed to a representative, form of democracy. I see no prospect of any
other type of politics taking us along this path. Let's consider this...
- Communism, despite the possible intentions of its early thinkers,
failed and became an authoritarian, oppressive system that people took
the opportunity to throw off when that presented itself.
- Socialism was a more viable form of political organisaton because it
included all sorts of arrangements, from the social democracy of Western
nations to one party states that, well, maybe weren't quite so
democratic (how can you have democracy and not choose your own
government?). A so-called 'communist' superpower, in reality an
opprssive, paranoid and authoritarian state, the now-departed Soviet
Union, used the Red Army's tanks and conscript troops to suppress the
'socialism with a human face', the more democratic socialism of
Checkoslovakia's Alexander Dubceck's government during the 'Pragie
Spring' of 1968. As some observers say, that was the real beginning of
the breakup of the Soviet Union.
-Fascism... Italy, Spain and Germany gave this one a run but all it did
was kill a lot of people, destroy a lot of cities and wreck those
countries.
- Anarchism... Briefly tried in Barcelona during the Spanish Civil War
but crushed by Franco's fascists assisted indirectly by the Soviets.
Anarchists have seemed to expend their energies quarreling about the
purity of their political strains rather than doing much constructive.
- Democracy... There are many varieties of this, stemming from the
representive type we in this country are familiar with, the direct type
that devolves political decision making to a more grassroots level and
the theoretical socialist type. Imperfect it might be, but perhaps we
can evolve a humane model of this, one that meets Ronnie's " more
empowered & less enslaved" criteria.
Just a few thoughts.
...Russ Grayson
> Peace & Love
>
> r0tiNeK
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 8, 2008 at 10:27 AM, Deb Guildner <bocor at bigbutton.com.au>
> wrote:
>
>> 1. You're an optimist......
>>
>> 2. Or, as the Walt Disney show used to say:
>> "...and then there's Fantasyland, the happiest kingdom of them
>> all........."
>> (Sigh)
>>
>> 3. News item, World News, sometime in the year 2009:
>> "Monsanto, DuPont and Bayer today decided to cease all chemical
>> production and genetically modified plant production, and place all
>> non-GM seeds in their ownership in the public domain to be freely
>> shared by the denisens of planet Earth." (Nice!)
>>
>> Wild GM canola has already escaped (and most likely crossed with wild
>> weed
>> relatives) to roadsides in the Adelaide Hills near where some trial
>> crops were grown several years ago, (according to a biological farmer
>> and anti-GM campaigner who lived in the area). The same has probably
>> happened elsewhere....what's to prevent it???
>>
>> Deb
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Dr Bob Rich" <bobrich at bobswriting.com>
>> To: <pil-pc-oceania at lists.permacultureinternational.org>
>> Sent: Friday, March 07, 2008 4:25 PM
>> Subject: [Pil-pc-oceania] GM may spread to weeds? Great!
>>
>>
>>> I've had a thought. So herbicide resistance may cross over into
weeds.
>>> That
>>> could have a number of very beneficial effects:
>>> 1. Instead of relying on Roundup, farmers will need to rely on
>>> sane farming practices.
>>> 2. The spread of poisons will reduce as a result.
>>> 3. Farmers losing income will be in the same kind of position as
>>> asbestositis sufferers -- and Monsanto will be in the same kind of
>>> position as James Hardy.
>>> Bring it on!
>>> :)
>>> Bob
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Dr Bob Rich
>>> http://bobswriting.com
>>> http://mudsmith.net
>>> http://anxietyanddepression-help.com
>>> Commit random acts of kindness
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Pil-pc-oceania mailing list
>>> Pil-pc-oceania at lists.permacultureinternational.org
>>> http://jasper.cmsarchitects.com/mailman/listinfo/pil-pc-oceania
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Pil-pc-oceania mailing list
>> Pil-pc-oceania at lists.permacultureinternational.org
>> http://jasper.cmsarchitects.com/mailman/listinfo/pil-pc-oceania
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Pil-pc-oceania mailing list
> Pil-pc-oceania at lists.permacultureinternational.org
> http://jasper.cmsarchitects.com/mailman/listinfo/pil-pc-oceania
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2008 21:33:19 +1100
From: "Ronnie Coleman" <rotinek at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Pil-pc-oceania] GM may spread to weeds? Great!
To: "permacultue discussion list"
<pil-pc-oceania at lists.permacultureinternational.org>
Message-ID:
<8f7856530803090333k75a658a0v36016ce3acc29933 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
If you watch "The Extras" section of the documentary "A Crude Awakening"
there is an interview with Dr. David L. Goodstein, a Professor of
Physics & applied physics.
The cheeky one's can find it here: http://www.mininova.org/tor/691742
He explains the bleak prospects for alternative sources of energy
extremely well.
The Oil Drum link below comprehensively covers our current predicament:
http://www.theoildrum.com/node/3623
This is why my assumptions are strong.
Russ's comment: "One thing history teaches us is never to assume that
the conditions of the present will be projected into the future."
This would refer more to the International Energy Agency's assumption of
exponential growth in world oil production (*as has been the reality up
until now*). Hence the term "Peak Oil". It is the point at which the
world (in aggregate) will produce the most oil it EVER will. EVER.
My assumption is not of present conditions being projected into the
future.
I am assuming terminal decline or "Energy Descent".
Russ's comment: "Possibly true... Good things might evolve. But will
they be outweighed by the bad things?"
Good point. The brutal reality is that not everyone is gonna make the
life-boat. But I believe the coming crisis & hardships will force us to
grow up & take responsibility for our own provision. For we cannot
expect Leadership from our Governments. They are incompetent & corrupted
by Corporate money. This is why the Permaculture revolution is starting
at the grass roots level. People are thinking for themselves & taking
control of their own lives again.
Permaculture Principle: "Use Small & Slow Solutions" - don't expect to
get Solar Hot Water, Solar Electricity, rain water storage, grey-water
systems or an entire food-garden all at once! Even we are doing it
little by little!
Slow & steady is the better way, anyway *: )* You need to "Observe &
Interact" (another Permaculture Principle!)
Regarding Politics, I still believe that the FORCED de-centralisation of
energy caused by Post Peak Oil means that Governments "reach",
"influence" & control is enormously reduced (economy is contracting thus
less tax revenue PLUS hyper-inflation caused by Post Peak Oil prices
means Government cannot afford to maintain the roads, nor the
electricity grid. This is very true when you understand macro-economic
principles).
So 10 years from now, it will be cheaper to have Origin Sliver Cell
Photovoltaic panels on your roof (sunny weather permitting) than to buy
from the grid:
http://www.originenergy.com.au/environment/files/factsheet_sliver.pdf
& no, I don't work for Origin *: )*
To understand the "de-centralisation of energy" concept, -think of
Globalisation in reverse. It's simply not possible once oil supply goes
into terminal decline.
r0tiNeK
On Sun, Mar 9, 2008 at 7:42 PM, RussGrayson <info at pacific-edge.info>
wrote:
> Comments below...
>
> On 8/3/08 9:31 PM, "Ronnie Coleman" <rotinek at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > So as the oil price climbs ever higher, centralised systems such as
> > "the Monsanto way" become too expensive. *It is simply too dependent
> > on oil & they don't have any other way.
>
> This makes the big assumption that no other source of energy will
> become available. This is quite possible, perhaps likely, but it
> remains an assumption.
>
> One thing history teaches us is never to assume that the conditions of
> the present will be projected into the future. I'm not saying that an
> alternative energy source will be developed... but we cannot make the
> assumpotion that it will not... We can always only say 'if a new
> source is not found... '. We do not know the future.
>
> > So there will be good things that arise from Post Peak Oil, -but you
> must
> > work hard NOW to establish yourself & Family/Community to be more
> > self-sufficient and independent (Solar Hot Water system, Solar
> Electricity
> > of some capacity, rain-water storage, grey water systems,
Permaculture).
>
> Possibly true... Good things might evolve. But will they be outweighed
> by the bad things? Peak oil, given the global economy's oil
> dependency, could well plunge the planet into global economic
> depression. That means that, if you are paying a mortgage for the
> house you place all these appliances mentioned above on, you might
> find yourself with no income and no house.
>
> Consider the seventeenth century piece by John Donne that starts...
> "No man is an island entire of itself; every man is a piece of the
> continent, a part of the main...".
>
> What donne is saying is that no one is self-sufficient; everyone
> relies on others. What happens to the world happens in some form in
> your garden, in your house, in your workplace, in your life. If there
> is global depression, then that happens to you, too. I find difficulty
> in focusing just on potential (but maybe mythical) positives coming
> from global crises like peak oil, as millions of unemployed, homeless
> and possibly malnourished people suffer. How will isolated
> permacultures fare in this sort of world?
>
> The technologies Ronnie mentions are all positive things, of course,
> and should be installed with the assistance of government financial
> and moral incentives.
>
> I fine Ronnie's notion of community response a good one. Maybe we can
> repurpose the Cold War idea of 'collective security' to our own ends
> in this regard and promote community response as that most relevant to
> the worst case scenario of peak oil - global financial meltdown. I
> recall discussions I had with permaculture eduator, Rosemany Morrow,
> in this regard. We came up with the term 'resilient communities' to
> encapsulate what we meant.
>
> > Hardships are coming, -but good things will also come of it. There
> > is emerging a time for We The People to become more empowered & less
> enslaved.
> > But we must strive for our freedom..
>
> Now the discussion becomes political, for to become "more empowered
> and less enslaved" implies the development of a type of participatory,
> as opposed to a representative, form of democracy. I see no prospect
> of any other type of politics taking us along this path. Let's
> consider this...
>
> - Communism, despite the possible intentions of its early thinkers,
> failed and became an authoritarian, oppressive system that people took
> the opportunity to throw off when that presented itself.
>
> - Socialism was a more viable form of political organisaton because it
> included all sorts of arrangements, from the social democracy of
> Western nations to one party states that, well, maybe weren't quite so
> democratic (how can you have democracy and not choose your own
> government?). A so-called 'communist' superpower, in reality an
> opprssive, paranoid and authoritarian state, the now-departed Soviet
> Union, used the Red Army's tanks and conscript troops to suppress the
> 'socialism with a human face', the more democratic socialism of
> Checkoslovakia's Alexander Dubceck's government during the 'Pragie
> Spring' of 1968. As some observers say, that was the real beginning of
the breakup of the Soviet Union.
>
> -Fascism... Italy, Spain and Germany gave this one a run but all it
> did was kill a lot of people, destroy a lot of cities and wreck those
> countries.
>
> - Anarchism... Briefly tried in Barcelona during the Spanish Civil War
> but crushed by Franco's fascists assisted indirectly by the Soviets.
> Anarchists
> have seemed to expend their energies quarreling about the purity of
> their political strains rather than doing much constructive.
>
> - Democracy... There are many varieties of this, stemming from the
> representive type we in this country are familiar with, the direct
> type that devolves political decision making to a more grassroots
> level and the theoretical socialist type. Imperfect it might be, but
> perhaps we can evolve a humane model of this, one that meets Ronnie's
> " more empowered & less enslaved" criteria.
>
> Just a few thoughts.
>
> ...Russ Grayson
>
>
> > Peace & Love
> >
> > r0tiNeK
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Mar 8, 2008 at 10:27 AM, Deb Guildner
> > <bocor at bigbutton.com.au>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> 1. You're an optimist......
> >>
> >> 2. Or, as the Walt Disney show used to say:
> >> "...and then there's Fantasyland, the happiest kingdom of them
> >> all........."
> >> (Sigh)
> >>
> >> 3. News item, World News, sometime in the year 2009:
> >> "Monsanto, DuPont and Bayer today decided to cease all chemical
> production
> >> and genetically modified plant production, and place all non-GM
> >> seeds
> in
> >> their ownership in the public domain to be freely shared by the
> denisens
> >> of
> >> planet Earth." (Nice!)
> >>
> >> Wild GM canola has already escaped (and most likely crossed with
> >> wild
> weed
> >> relatives) to roadsides in the Adelaide Hills near where some trial
> crops
> >> were grown several years ago, (according to a biological farmer and
> >> anti-GM campaigner who lived in the area). The same has probably
> >> happened elsewhere....what's to prevent it???
> >>
> >> Deb
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Dr Bob Rich" <bobrich at bobswriting.com>
> >> To: <pil-pc-oceania at lists.permacultureinternational.org>
> >> Sent: Friday, March 07, 2008 4:25 PM
> >> Subject: [Pil-pc-oceania] GM may spread to weeds? Great!
> >>
> >>
> >>> I've had a thought. So herbicide resistance may cross over into
weeds.
> >>> That
> >>> could have a number of very beneficial effects:
> >>> 1. Instead of relying on Roundup, farmers will need to rely on
> >>> sane farming practices.
> >>> 2. The spread of poisons will reduce as a result.
> >>> 3. Farmers losing income will be in the same kind of position
> >>> as asbestositis sufferers -- and Monsanto will be in the same kind
> >>> of position as James Hardy.
> >>> Bring it on!
> >>> :)
> >>> Bob
> >>> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> Dr Bob Rich
> >>> http://bobswriting.com
> >>> http://mudsmith.net
> >>> http://anxietyanddepression-help.com
> >>> Commit random acts of kindness
> >>> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Pil-pc-oceania mailing list
> >>> Pil-pc-oceania at lists.permacultureinternational.org
> >>> http://jasper.cmsarchitects.com/mailman/listinfo/pil-pc-oceania
> >>>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Pil-pc-oceania mailing list
> >> Pil-pc-oceania at lists.permacultureinternational.org
> >> http://jasper.cmsarchitects.com/mailman/listinfo/pil-pc-oceania
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Pil-pc-oceania mailing list
> > Pil-pc-oceania at lists.permacultureinternational.org
> > http://jasper.cmsarchitects.com/mailman/listinfo/pil-pc-oceania
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pil-pc-oceania mailing list
> Pil-pc-oceania at lists.permacultureinternational.org
> http://jasper.cmsarchitects.com/mailman/listinfo/pil-pc-oceania
>
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